Non-developer to developer insults
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I've tried the reasonable approach. I've been as patient as I would be with a three year-old child, explaining in single syllable words why what they were asking for wasn't reasonable. This doesn't work, because the sales mind-set is that anything less than a full-bore, balls-to-the-wall aggressive response on your part is simple acquiescence. They don't understand, and moreover they don't want to understand. They don't want techno-babble, they want whatever sweet nothing buzzword the customer's been whispering in their ear in bed at night.
Software Zen:
delete this;As it turns out the spoken language sometimes varies a bit from the written one; ask him to formulate his question in writing, preferably not one big story but a number of (numbered) points which you can answer. No doubt the answers you have been giving him are correct but no where near his "comfort zone". Getting the discussion in writing may even lead to a third person doing some form of translation between the two of you. Discussion is never bad(but it can get utterly tiresome) Regards, AT
Cogito ergo sum
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As it turns out the spoken language sometimes varies a bit from the written one; ask him to formulate his question in writing, preferably not one big story but a number of (numbered) points which you can answer. No doubt the answers you have been giving him are correct but no where near his "comfort zone". Getting the discussion in writing may even lead to a third person doing some form of translation between the two of you. Discussion is never bad(but it can get utterly tiresome) Regards, AT
Cogito ergo sum
You've got to be kidding. In my experience, the only time a salesperson is willing to write is when they're endorsing their commission checks.
Addy Tas wrote:
Getting the discussion in writing may even lead to a third person doing some form of translation between the two of you.
That's our current mechanism. Our organization is big enough that we have 'sales support' personnel who mediate between engineering and the front-line sales people. The only time this doesn't work is when the sales person tries to go directly to engineering with their requests ("it can't be more than a one or two line change, really").
Software Zen:
delete this; -
You've got to be kidding. In my experience, the only time a salesperson is willing to write is when they're endorsing their commission checks.
Addy Tas wrote:
Getting the discussion in writing may even lead to a third person doing some form of translation between the two of you.
That's our current mechanism. Our organization is big enough that we have 'sales support' personnel who mediate between engineering and the front-line sales people. The only time this doesn't work is when the sales person tries to go directly to engineering with their requests ("it can't be more than a one or two line change, really").
Software Zen:
delete this;mmm, you have those "paper is a crime" (read: If i put it in writing you can show others how stupid i am) persons running around.... hard to work with.
Gary Wheeler wrote:
("it can't be more than a one or two line change, really").
Now that sounds familiar! I have (on multiple accounts) seen other / worse side of that notion. You're asked to create a planning; with the available resources it would take approx 2 months but as it needs to be ready a month ealier, it is sold to the customer to be ready one month before it can be ready.... Wonder why these projects always run late.... Try to get a little zen and let that one guy not ruine your day, week etc.
Cogito ergo sum
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The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
Four points: 1: you have asked me this question five times (assuming he comes back so you can deliver this) and failed to understand the concept. The definition of crazy is to do something over and over and expect different results. 2: You may consider talking to me like talking to a child but maybe the problem is that explaining something to you that others have no problem with is like explaining something to a moron. 3: Given your inability to understand what others have no problem with and the inability of myself to get you to understand, why don’t you try reading the fine manual. 4: Insulting someone you are dependent on, like biting the hand that feeds you, is a quick way to get yourself cut off. Leave until you can correct your attitude and demonstrate a contrite and humble mind-set. An arrogant mind is a closed mind, incapable of considering itself missing core concepts from which to build understanding.
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The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
I've quit jobs over this. If you want me to lie to you, you should have made that clear when you hired me. I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear, no matter how much you bully me.
When posting here, I do not represent anybody but myself.
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The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
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The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
No, rude is when your supervisor, addressing a team who's average age is 30 yells at us to "Grow up!" because we were expressing our opinions on a problem when she just wanted compliance. It was like a supersaturated solution getting that trigger and crystallizing instantly. The mood of the room shifted unanimously against her.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I would say just show him your pay stub and smile
Unfortunately, most of the places I have worked the sales staff focus on large installations in corporate environments, they easily pull in 2 - 2.5 times what the top-level developers made. They also received commission on both the initial sale, and the maintenance renewals each year. That sort of motivation from them would cause them to ask for things to be done with the software that were irrational, impossible, and ludicrous.
Quote:
That sort of motivation from them would cause them to ask for things to be done with the software that were irrational, impossible, and ludicrous.
My experience has been that the salesman will never bother to tell you what he promised the client. You'll find out after delivery when the client is hammering you for the missing features.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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dimensionJumper wrote:
"sometimes it's like talking to a child",
Being the father of a 3.5 year old, I get asked "What's that?" a lot, sometimes multiple occurances for the same item. Oddly enough, using smaller words that they can understand gets the job done. ...and he said talking to developers is like talking to a child?? Weird, 'cause the way I see it, it's the other way around.
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Dave KreskowiakInterestingly, in some cultures, saying the same thing several different ways is the norm. For example, in Thailand, when you want to communicate something, it is considered impolite to be short and concise. For an American operating in that sort of culture is very frustrating since we tend to lean towards stating something one way as concisely as possible and ONLY once. This is similar to dealing with children - and sales people - who have no concept of what you are trying to explain. Getting frustrated and hurling insults at one another is fun; however, isn't always the best use of time. Unfortunately, the only way out of the situation is to suck-it-up and direct the conversation away from the point of conflict. This is hard, I hate it and get little immediate satisfaction, but I know it is the right thing to do. :mad:
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And here I thought you were going to say you replied, "I agree." or something else along those lines. :laugh: Seriously though, it is rude to do that to someone. I'd say in that situation I would have tried to figure out what exactly he was aiming to understand. Obviously, there's a communication barrier somewhere between you guys, you've just got to figure out what is the stumbling block. It may be obvious to you because you've lived and breathed the software for X amount of time, but this guy is as far from software as you are from sales. :)
Andrew Rissing wrote:
Obviously, there's a communication barrier somewhere between you guys, you've just got to figure out what is the stumbling block.
Absolutely. You're the smarter dude there, so its your responsibility to understand him. He's asked you multiple times, so he's clearly depending on that from you. Unless, of course, you're sure the smarts go the other way around...
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
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I've tried the reasonable approach. I've been as patient as I would be with a three year-old child, explaining in single syllable words why what they were asking for wasn't reasonable. This doesn't work, because the sales mind-set is that anything less than a full-bore, balls-to-the-wall aggressive response on your part is simple acquiescence. They don't understand, and moreover they don't want to understand. They don't want techno-babble, they want whatever sweet nothing buzzword the customer's been whispering in their ear in bed at night.
Software Zen:
delete this;No no no, this is trying to get across a concept that is already written and in production, the silly bastard has to SELL it now. Under no circumstances should a sales person be allowed to discuss requirements with a developer without a translator/mediator/muzzle carrier present and with the authority to stamp on the sales person.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Interestingly, in some cultures, saying the same thing several different ways is the norm. For example, in Thailand, when you want to communicate something, it is considered impolite to be short and concise. For an American operating in that sort of culture is very frustrating since we tend to lean towards stating something one way as concisely as possible and ONLY once. This is similar to dealing with children - and sales people - who have no concept of what you are trying to explain. Getting frustrated and hurling insults at one another is fun; however, isn't always the best use of time. Unfortunately, the only way out of the situation is to suck-it-up and direct the conversation away from the point of conflict. This is hard, I hate it and get little immediate satisfaction, but I know it is the right thing to do. :mad:
Uhhh...yeah. I have no idea what you're trying to say in relation to what I said.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Uhhh...yeah. I have no idea what you're trying to say in relation to what I said.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
dimensionJumper wrote:
"sometimes it's like talking to a child",
Being the father of a 3.5 year old, I get asked "What's that?" a lot, sometimes multiple occurances for the same item. Oddly enough, using smaller words that they can understand gets the job done. ...and he said talking to developers is like talking to a child?? Weird, 'cause the way I see it, it's the other way around.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
No no no, this is trying to get across a concept that is already written and in production, the silly bastard has to SELL it now. Under no circumstances should a sales person be allowed to discuss requirements with a developer without a translator/mediator/muzzle carrier present and with the authority to stamp on the sales person.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Under no circumstances should a sales person be allowed to discuss requirements with a developer without a translator/mediator/muzzle carrier present and with the authority to stamp on euthanize the sales person. FTFY.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
The sales guy selling our software product just said to me, "sometimes it's like talking to a child", because I gave him the same answer to a question he's asked me at least 4 times regarding what we should do logically with some data; at nearly 30 years old I'm pretty bloody offended. Is it being stubborn not giving him the wrong answer just to appease him? Anyone else had to put up with abuse from non-developers because they just didn't grasp what to you was pretty damn obvious?
If you want to be helpful still, ask what was wrong with the other 3 answers. Does he understand your answer, or disagree? Do you need to better explain your answer, or is there some missing information you didn't know about why your answer won't work? Note older workers can have issues with bad communications from young workers. I'm older, but hopefully wouldn't call someone a child (to their face anyway)... (My wife doesn't like when I don't know the answer to something, she keeps asking, maybe rewording the question thinking I'll suddenly give an answer when I didn't before...)