Why the need to Codeless languages like PWCT?
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I agree with most of what you are saying. One thing I do not agree with however is your opinion that to be a good programmer you must be a computer science graduate. I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer. My honest opinion of PWCT is to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers. Most normal "everyday" users don't want to create applications they just want to use them. :)
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Ok you are right, but I believe that a programmer must have studied certain fields like 'Algorithms' and 'Data Structures' to be a good programmer Am I wrong?
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I remember starting out on Microsoft Access writing queries with the drag and drop diagrams - this was back in 1998. When I now write SQL for Oracle and SQL Server databases I write the queries. I have to say I prefer writing the queries - as it is quicker, more optimised, neater(the horrible things you had to do to get around the constraints of the query diagram tool in Access) and one heck of a lot easier to maintain... The analogy I would draw is a bread making machine - which will create reasonable bread, with you just throwing in the ingredients. However if you want the best bread possible you will have to mix the ingredients and knead the dough yourself, as well as know how to do this properly, in order to get the correct consistency of dough and the best bread ever :)
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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It's still code anyway.
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Ok you are right, but I believe that a programmer must have studied certain fields like 'Algorithms' and 'Data Structures' to be a good programmer Am I wrong?
So you are saying that the originator(s) of the 'standard' algorithms or devised the basic data structures would not make good programmers because they obviously couldn't have studied those subjects which didn't exist as subjects? Patently not so. They had intelligence, liked problem solving and had imagination. I have known many truly excellent programmers who never studied any programming-related field.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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So you are saying that the originator(s) of the 'standard' algorithms or devised the basic data structures would not make good programmers because they obviously couldn't have studied those subjects which didn't exist as subjects? Patently not so. They had intelligence, liked problem solving and had imagination. I have known many truly excellent programmers who never studied any programming-related field.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
it is not as you got it I mean if someone is inventing an algorithm, he doesn't need to be a programmer I'm ok with that but imagine a programmer who doesn't know how to algorithm a programmer who doesn't know how to choose between different algorithms for the same problem you got my point?
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Ok you are right, but I believe that a programmer must have studied certain fields like 'Algorithms' and 'Data Structures' to be a good programmer Am I wrong?
I agree that having a good understanding of common data structures and algorithms certainly doesn't hurt. :-D
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So you are saying that the originator(s) of the 'standard' algorithms or devised the basic data structures would not make good programmers because they obviously couldn't have studied those subjects which didn't exist as subjects? Patently not so. They had intelligence, liked problem solving and had imagination. I have known many truly excellent programmers who never studied any programming-related field.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
+5 I only with I could vote you a 10! :thumbsup:
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
the point of having computers is to help people get things done. and if PWCT helps people get their work done, why should it matter that those people aren't "educated and trained to write code" ?
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the point of having computers is to help people get things done. and if PWCT helps people get their work done, why should it matter that those people aren't "educated and trained to write code" ?
The point is "It will not help" it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy and there is no need to study specific topics to do it. I don't mind people who are not CS graduates to be programmers, but they have to study the basic concepts of the field. It is not just like that.
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Ignore it. It's not the first, it won't be the last. The problem is with all these things is that the assume that all applications are the same. As soon as you step outside a (generally very narrow) set of circumstances, it doesn't work any more, or it doesn't support it, and it all falls apart. They can be acceptable for introducing concepts to beginners, but I've yet to see one flexible enough to create real-world apps. Oh, sorry - yes I have: C# and the .NET framework... [edit]"sooty"? "sooty"? What's that doing in there? "Sorry" - that's better. Gack! I can't even spell that right today... - OriginalGriff[/edit]
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
OriginalGriff wrote:
"sooty"? What's that doing in there?
I could just hear Harry Corbett's voice then. ;)
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
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The point is "It will not help" it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy and there is no need to study specific topics to do it. I don't mind people who are not CS graduates to be programmers, but they have to study the basic concepts of the field. It is not just like that.
Well you know, there are even programmers out there who don't understand two's complement. They sometimes even argue that they don't need to know. And then they complain that the sum of two positive numbers couldn't possibly be negative so the computer or the compiler or whatever must be doing something wrong.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
It will only create more opportunities for programmers (who need not be Comp Sci graduates, some of the best I've ever met are self educated) to clean up the messes they make...
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
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The point is "It will not help" it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy and there is no need to study specific topics to do it. I don't mind people who are not CS graduates to be programmers, but they have to study the basic concepts of the field. It is not just like that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant. do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I think that the techonology would help human people to make them better people, if in that way the improve their work its `k, but people comes first. Although i am not an software/system/computer engineer (i am an electronic engineer), I share the love to programming in a similar way you mention. I like to program in languages as cpp and the old assembler, but also knok the practical vba family languages too. I also have to say that to learn to programm has a hard way, teachers don`t trasnfer their knowledge quite well, examples are too easy or too difficult, and in order to understand it you should have not only an appropiate university environmet, but laso the kinder, the primary and secondary (high) school, even the meals and breakfast takes into account. as you can imagine, it is not the case in all the world, so you have to understand this situation and tolerate that not all the people have the same wealth. take into account that the programming has become more and more difficult to learn. since the initial "c" code to the opp, the java concept (and the later dot net approach), the new model-view-controller and the ide's that doesn`t help quite well to developers in order to implemment each approach. I suppose that most of people in Egypt doesn`t have the same opportunities to learn so their most important codes could be seen as the "wrong way to do the things", instead you should look this things and think how you could make it better. remember that the graphical languages appears to make non programming people (who wanted to) to become a "kind" of programmer. the level of the result will depend on the graphical languaje kernel (or so) it is possible to think that people who know how to programm could be "happy" for them because such development would improve their work. so, don't be panic for such development and, if you can improve the "core" of the graphical languaje to make "real short code" it would be better, regards, Elias
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
Citing earlier comments from this thread: - OriginalGriff "Ignore it. It's not the first, it won't be the last." - LanFanNinja "... to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers." Really, no need to worry at all. None of them systems has ever come close to be a significant threat to programmers, nor will they. Anybody who has ever bothered to take a look at the cryptic code these "new technologies" generate will have realized that it's not designed to be maintained by any living human being (on the code level). They only add an additional and completely unnecessary layer of complexity to the development process. Even worse, once you use one of these tools to generate commercial applications you're stuck, depending entirely on the code generator for almost everything. Of course you can always write your own code within their framework, but then, why use them at all? In a certain sense that's similar to a company being "married" to a specific ERP. The more they get accustomed to using it, the more difficult it becomes migrating to another ERP, not to mention the human and financial costs implied. IMHO, these systems are no good for anything except for wasting your time and other valuable resources. Just in case, perhaps somebody could run some Static Code Analysis on the code generated by PWCT et al. and then try to analyze the results ;-) http://altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/ (from today's CodeProject Daily News).
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
Well, I have several questions... 1) What programming language is PWCT written in? Is it written in PWCT? 2) Does PWCT compile itself? I.,E.: If new libraries are added, does PWCT recompile itself to make new features available? Sounds totally BOGUS to me! MJR
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I agree with most of what you are saying. One thing I do not agree with however is your opinion that to be a good programmer you must be a computer science graduate. I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer. My honest opinion of PWCT is to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers. Most normal "everyday" users don't want to create applications they just want to use them. :)
LanFanNinja wrote:
I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer.
I doubt that. But I also doubt that the same mindset can be taught at the college level. Or that it can be knowingly directed. There are certain conditions that lead to being able to program and presenting the existing knowledge is just a way for those with the aptitude to acquire the detail. And of course it also says nothing about whether a person will actually be good at it.
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Citing earlier comments from this thread: - OriginalGriff "Ignore it. It's not the first, it won't be the last." - LanFanNinja "... to not worry about it many similar thing have been created in the past and has not lessened the demand for programmers." Really, no need to worry at all. None of them systems has ever come close to be a significant threat to programmers, nor will they. Anybody who has ever bothered to take a look at the cryptic code these "new technologies" generate will have realized that it's not designed to be maintained by any living human being (on the code level). They only add an additional and completely unnecessary layer of complexity to the development process. Even worse, once you use one of these tools to generate commercial applications you're stuck, depending entirely on the code generator for almost everything. Of course you can always write your own code within their framework, but then, why use them at all? In a certain sense that's similar to a company being "married" to a specific ERP. The more they get accustomed to using it, the more difficult it becomes migrating to another ERP, not to mention the human and financial costs implied. IMHO, these systems are no good for anything except for wasting your time and other valuable resources. Just in case, perhaps somebody could run some Static Code Analysis on the code generated by PWCT et al. and then try to analyze the results ;-) http://altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/ (from today's CodeProject Daily News).
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Well, I have several questions... 1) What programming language is PWCT written in? Is it written in PWCT? 2) Does PWCT compile itself? I.,E.: If new libraries are added, does PWCT recompile itself to make new features available? Sounds totally BOGUS to me! MJR
