Why the need to Codeless languages like PWCT?
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I would suggest you become better programmers and not fuss over education. In the USA, most of what is taught in college has little relationship to the real world. Most of the code out there is dealing with the database. It is moving data in and out and making sure that the data is sensible. For the record, my degree is in Church Ministry. My only college level programming was a COBOL course taken in 1984. My education consists of a lot of reading, a lot of writing code, and three month intensive study. The three month course said they would give me experience on a level with having spent two to three years on the job. And in my case, it has held out. The reality is that most people can't program even with that technology. What it will accomplish is that an organization will have some non-programmer get something that works adequately for a while. The person will move on and they won't be able to find someone to maintain it. Then someone will make good money fixing things up. Protecting yourself by requiring education will not lead anywhere. Protect yourself by delivering quality code in a timely manner. Pay attention to the value of what you write. Learn to write in iterations. The first being something that mostly gets things done. Then improve in steps and people will love your work. Don't get upset when the user doesn't tell you everything. They don't know what to tell you. That is part of the process. Be willing to learn how to do their job, so you can make i easier. Business value is and will always be your best form of security. Anything else will lead to a short quick ride to the bottom when the wall eventually fails. Your idea of protecting your jobs by requiring education is quite like the efforts of your former government to protect itself by suppressing the citizens. It works, but not forever.
Great I agree with you the point is I'm not saying that programmers are only CS graduates I mean if anyone wants to be a programmer he must know of things like 'Data Structures' and 'Algorithms', Am I wrong? without these two important fields he just write a messy code that executes what is required by any means. Not matter how he learn these, but he has to.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
I think your question is pointless; PWCT presumably satisfies a particular a particular need, niche or not, and if it doesn't it will die a death like many others. We use tools to build programs every day - I started writing in machine code many years ago, then first generation compiled languages with no or minimal libraries, but now use functionally rich languages. You pick your tool for the job you've got to do. And programmers as we know them today will probably disappear eventually given enough time, but perhaps not in our lifetime Jim.
Les
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Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
Ahmedn1 wrote:
it just make things worse by making people believe that programming is very easy
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant. do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?
Chris Losinger wrote:
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
I know that by experience - that kind of tools only cheat users that they can make things simple and empower them to solve complex problems. You need to have proper knowledge to solve a complex problem. That is why we are not going to sell groceries by the way.
Chris Losinger wrote:
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant.
do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?You cannot compare those things - there is a tool for every purpose. Some things must be done in assembly, others in C# and SQL. If you want to write programs "visually" you can do it really only in a certain restricted domain because a lot of things will need to be guessed or implied behind the scenes by the tool author. If there is a really *simple* problem to be solved - there is the Excel for that and again you will need the *knowledge* to use it. You see - anytime you do even the simplest information processing you will need proper information processing skills and background. So, this will just not "help people get their work done".
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Chris Losinger wrote:
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
I know that by experience - that kind of tools only cheat users that they can make things simple and empower them to solve complex problems. You need to have proper knowledge to solve a complex problem. That is why we are not going to sell groceries by the way.
Chris Losinger wrote:
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant.
do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?You cannot compare those things - there is a tool for every purpose. Some things must be done in assembly, others in C# and SQL. If you want to write programs "visually" you can do it really only in a certain restricted domain because a lot of things will need to be guessed or implied behind the scenes by the tool author. If there is a really *simple* problem to be solved - there is the Excel for that and again you will need the *knowledge* to use it. You see - anytime you do even the simplest information processing you will need proper information processing skills and background. So, this will just not "help people get their work done".
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LanFanNinja wrote:
I very strongly believe that people are born with the mindset and abilities to be a good programmer.
I doubt that. But I also doubt that the same mindset can be taught at the college level. Or that it can be knowingly directed. There are certain conditions that lead to being able to program and presenting the existing knowledge is just a way for those with the aptitude to acquire the detail. And of course it also says nothing about whether a person will actually be good at it.
Perhaps I could have chosen my words better. I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
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Chris Losinger wrote:
Ahmedn1 wrote:
The point is "It will not help"
you don't know that.
I know that by experience - that kind of tools only cheat users that they can make things simple and empower them to solve complex problems. You need to have proper knowledge to solve a complex problem. That is why we are not going to sell groceries by the way.
Chris Losinger wrote:
if something helps people to get their work done, your opinion of how easy or hard it is compared to what you think programming must be is irrelevant.
do you also insist that all programmers use assembly because things like C# and SQL are too far removed from the hardware and give people the impression that programming is easy ?You cannot compare those things - there is a tool for every purpose. Some things must be done in assembly, others in C# and SQL. If you want to write programs "visually" you can do it really only in a certain restricted domain because a lot of things will need to be guessed or implied behind the scenes by the tool author. If there is a really *simple* problem to be solved - there is the Excel for that and again you will need the *knowledge* to use it. You see - anytime you do even the simplest information processing you will need proper information processing skills and background. So, this will just not "help people get their work done".
Lazar Videnov wrote:
there is a tool for every purpose
yes. thank you for agreeing.
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Introduction Before I begin, if you don't know what is PWCT it is abbreviation for (Programming Without Code Technology). A new programming language created by Mohamed El-Fayed to create applications without writing the code. It is one of the Visual Programming languages. Background Here is the link for more information: PWCT The Point The point is why we need something like this? What will be fun and entertaining about programming if we don't write code? In my opinion, our work (as programmers) have two fun parts (I mean fun for brain): Thinking for new algorithms and writing the code itself. Let's think a little bit. What is the purpose? As Mohammed said, it is to make everyday user create his own programs without previous knowledge of code. WHAT???????????????? And what will we do? Selling groceries??????? You know something? In Egypt, it's been more than 2 years now while we are trying to form our own union for Egyptian programmers. And for what? It is for protecting us from any other outsiders. I mean here in Egypt any graduate from Business college, Medicine, Pharmacy, Engineering and even people who didn't complete their education can take some courses in C# or Java and Halaloia they are programmers!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there is a big difference between a Computer Sciences graduate and those people. They don't study 'Data Structures', 'Algorithms', 'AI', .... etc. They just study how to code, how to deal with a database. If you had a look on their apps you will find that they use only the Arrays in all their work. They don't know that there are things like 'Stack', 'Queue', 'List', 'Dictionary', ...etc. But now? Here comes someone who says to them "Welcome all ignorant people. From today you ALL are programmers with PWCT". And what makes me angry, that there are a lot of people who are happy with this. If you check the reviews on the home page of PWCT website you will understand what I mean. They made an interview with him in SourceForge!!!!!!!!!! It cannot even be used for educational purposes. I mean a programmer must be educated and trained to write code from his first day, so he can love it. If he started with dragging actions from a GUI he will be lazy to deal with code. You can download the latest version and use it for only 5 minutes and I'm sure you will throw your laptop from the window. I need to know your opinion about this new technology that will make us NOTHING!!!!!
To Be Or Not To Be
- Don't worry, it's the same all over the world. 2) Don't worry, these "fast-track" programmers never do good work, and in time (maybe ten years) they either learn to become good programmers or they eliminate themselves.
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Perhaps I could have chosen my words better. I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most.
LanFanNinja wrote:
I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most
Doesn't help. I still don't agree. I suspect that people are born with a varying degrees of intelligence (using a very broad definition) along with other innate attributes that might impacts one life. They are not born with an affinity for logic or mathematics or any other attribute that one might associate with being a good programmer. One doesn't even need a great deal of intelligence. Desire, drive and discipline are more likely to lead to success as long as one can grasp the basic concepts (having enough intelligence for that.) If someone grows up in an environment where mathematics and logic are encouraged (however that is done) then they are more likely to pursue programming versus someone who grows up (for example) being encouraged to be a football player. Note of course that being intelligent is something that is a plus for the latter as well as the former. (And I am not even saying that logic and mathematics are the defining attributes of programming. Seems possible, but not necessarily an absolute and other abilities could be important as well or instead of.)
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LanFanNinja wrote:
I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most
Doesn't help. I still don't agree. I suspect that people are born with a varying degrees of intelligence (using a very broad definition) along with other innate attributes that might impacts one life. They are not born with an affinity for logic or mathematics or any other attribute that one might associate with being a good programmer. One doesn't even need a great deal of intelligence. Desire, drive and discipline are more likely to lead to success as long as one can grasp the basic concepts (having enough intelligence for that.) If someone grows up in an environment where mathematics and logic are encouraged (however that is done) then they are more likely to pursue programming versus someone who grows up (for example) being encouraged to be a football player. Note of course that being intelligent is something that is a plus for the latter as well as the former. (And I am not even saying that logic and mathematics are the defining attributes of programming. Seems possible, but not necessarily an absolute and other abilities could be important as well or instead of.)
You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say! You are arguing with me when I agree with you!!!
jschell wrote:
Desire, drive and discipline are more likely to lead to success as long as one can grasp the basic concepts (having enough intelligence for that.)
That is basically what I was trying to say.
LanFanNinja wrote:
I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most
in·ter·est : The state of wanting to know or learn about something or someone. This interest will fuel there desire and drive them to learn more about it.
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You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say! You are arguing with me when I agree with you!!!
jschell wrote:
Desire, drive and discipline are more likely to lead to success as long as one can grasp the basic concepts (having enough intelligence for that.)
That is basically what I was trying to say.
LanFanNinja wrote:
I simply meant to say that certain people are born with what I could only describe as hard coded interests that allow them to become better programmers than most
in·ter·est : The state of wanting to know or learn about something or someone. This interest will fuel there desire and drive them to learn more about it.
LanFanNinja wrote:
You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say!
Could be.
LanFanNinja wrote:
in·ter·est : The state of wanting to know or learn about something or someone.
You certainly seem to be saying that they are "born" with an "interest" in something. Those are the words you used. Basically as long as you keep using the word "born" then I am going to keep disagreeing with you. Attributes that lead to programming are acquired after birth.
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LanFanNinja wrote:
You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say!
Could be.
LanFanNinja wrote:
in·ter·est : The state of wanting to know or learn about something or someone.
You certainly seem to be saying that they are "born" with an "interest" in something. Those are the words you used. Basically as long as you keep using the word "born" then I am going to keep disagreeing with you. Attributes that lead to programming are acquired after birth.
OK so this is getting ridiculous! I do however agree that "born" was not the right word to use. If someone with an interest in creating, problem solving, etc. discovered programming at the same time as another person who only started because they thought it would be a good way to make a lot of money IMO the person with the true desire of learning these things purely out of interest and not wealth would have a greater chance of being the better programmer. Discussing my comment to this extent is a huge waste of time for both of us! I suggest we get back to work. :)