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Abortion

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  • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Super, however the 200,000 years of human evolution has yet to discover how to stop teenagers f***ing.

    Doesn't negate the idea that people (including teenagers) shouldn't be irresponsible. Either make the choice beforehand, or make the choice afterwards. But be responsible for your actions: life should be preserved.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Agreed, but again, historically it has been used as a weapon of war.
    (qv Bosnia, Middle East, Barbaross etc)

    True, but then war is not moral either. Stop warring.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Don't have sex with anyone's children, but then define children?

    Agreed, but I was talking incest here. Way to twist my words. Children: your progeny, or your adopted progeny, your direct descendant. Or your spouses projeny, adopted or by blood.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Please define "someone you're not supposed to".

    Someone with whom you're not willing or ready to be responsible for and with the possible outcome: a baby. Someone who is your direct descendant, etc.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Please define "licentious behavior"

    Uncontrolled, irresponsible sexual behavior.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    And what of Adultery, whose concern is it but those who are involved?

    Unwanted pregnancies are everyone's concern. Taking unlawful and unethical and irresponsible sexual actions with another's spouse is certainly of concern with those the violated union. Since that union is given special privileges and sanction by society it is of society's concern too.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    Actually, evolution has taken care of that little problem

    Maybe, but we are more than mere animals. Still, I'm with you. I'd rather my wife save her life, but I understand and respect her choice.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    That is a rather crude phrase, and it is not acurate.
    Babies cannot be killed, that would be murder.

    Depends on what you define as a baby.

    Dalek Dave wrote:

    severely disable child

    You're right. I didn't think of that. I don't really know, but I think that should be left up to the parents involved. I'm not sure what

    D Offline
    D Offline
    Dalek Dave
    wrote on last edited by
    #7

    With a broad brush I can agree with many of your points. But I still feel that you (and by 'you' I mean any of us) have no right to interfere in someone elses lives and relationships. Your definition of licentious behaviour may be very different from mine, so why should I change my life for your benefit? I must take you to task with your differentiation of us and animals. We are animals, we are hard wired to do certain things because of our evolutionary imperitives, we behave certain ways as a matter of survival, we are merely 'sophisticated and rather intelligent' animals, but animals none the less. Posit - Would you let one child die to save the other three? Difficult question and one that is impossible to answer until you have to make the decision. And that is the nub of my point. You are saying that certain behaviours are wrong, IN YOUR VIEW, and I respect your view, I just do not agree with it. As for the botom line...

    ahmed zahmed wrote:

    I don't really know, but I think that should be left up to the parents involved.

    I agree, but I think all decisions are best left with those concerned. BTW, If you ever square the circle on this matter, run for President! :)

    --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live

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    • D Dalek Dave

      With a broad brush I can agree with many of your points. But I still feel that you (and by 'you' I mean any of us) have no right to interfere in someone elses lives and relationships. Your definition of licentious behaviour may be very different from mine, so why should I change my life for your benefit? I must take you to task with your differentiation of us and animals. We are animals, we are hard wired to do certain things because of our evolutionary imperitives, we behave certain ways as a matter of survival, we are merely 'sophisticated and rather intelligent' animals, but animals none the less. Posit - Would you let one child die to save the other three? Difficult question and one that is impossible to answer until you have to make the decision. And that is the nub of my point. You are saying that certain behaviours are wrong, IN YOUR VIEW, and I respect your view, I just do not agree with it. As for the botom line...

      ahmed zahmed wrote:

      I don't really know, but I think that should be left up to the parents involved.

      I agree, but I think all decisions are best left with those concerned. BTW, If you ever square the circle on this matter, run for President! :)

      --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live

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      T Offline
      TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
      wrote on last edited by
      #8

      Dalek Dave wrote:

      interfere in someone elses lives and relationships

      No, I don't unless their behavior negatively impinges on my or other's lives.

      Dalek Dave wrote:

      definition of licentious behaviour

      It's true we'd all have to come to an understanding of terms, but I think there's at least a minimum overlap there. My main point is to be responsible for your actions, be moral. I do think I have a right to tell others how to act when those actions negatively affect me.

      Dalek Dave wrote:

      Posit - Would you let one child die to save the other three?

      Maybe, depends on the situation.

      Dalek Dave wrote:

      run for President

      Not on your life! The only person that should be President is the one who doesn't want it.

      If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
      You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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      • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

        The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.

        If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
        You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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        Corporal Agarn
        wrote on last edited by
        #9

        Ah, morality. Too bad more people are not moral, and you cannot make them moral. There are laws here in the states to keep people from doing a lot of what you say. They do not work. Just my two cents.

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        • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

          The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.

          If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
          You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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          R Giskard Reventlov
          wrote on last edited by
          #10

          I've downvoted you firstly on the basis of being earnest but very naive. Whilst I would love to agree with what you say, experience tells me that we'd make a very loneley twosome. It's human nature to want to procreate and there are no hard wired rules about how that should happen. There is the man-mad morality we try to shove on top of it (crudely put, I know) but you can't stop horny teenagers (or anyoen, for that matter) from fucking each others tiny brains out. Further, just because you have a certain set of morals, they may not jibe with what I consider to be moral which leaves you setting yourself up as judge and jury about what everyone else can or should do. (I see the paradox inherent in that sentence but I think you get my meaning). Finally, I would agree with DD: abortion does not kill babies: that was inflammatory and the other reason I downvoted you.

          "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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          • D Dalek Dave

            You're being sarcastic right?

            --------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] English League Tables - Live

            Z Offline
            Z Offline
            ZurdoDev
            wrote on last edited by
            #11

            No, not at all.

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            • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

              Several downvotes, even one spam/abusive vote, but nobody with the gumption to reply.

              If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
              You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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              ZurdoDev
              wrote on last edited by
              #12

              Not a popular opinion in this forum. The funny thing is a lot people in this forum think their opinion is the popular one because this is the only forum they are on, or ones similar like it. I am just glad to see someone stand up for what is right even when it is not popular. Thank you.

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              • R R Giskard Reventlov

                I've downvoted you firstly on the basis of being earnest but very naive. Whilst I would love to agree with what you say, experience tells me that we'd make a very loneley twosome. It's human nature to want to procreate and there are no hard wired rules about how that should happen. There is the man-mad morality we try to shove on top of it (crudely put, I know) but you can't stop horny teenagers (or anyoen, for that matter) from fucking each others tiny brains out. Further, just because you have a certain set of morals, they may not jibe with what I consider to be moral which leaves you setting yourself up as judge and jury about what everyone else can or should do. (I see the paradox inherent in that sentence but I think you get my meaning). Finally, I would agree with DD: abortion does not kill babies: that was inflammatory and the other reason I downvoted you.

                "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                wrote on last edited by
                #13

                Thanks for the reply. Still, I see you don't seem to disagree with the main point of my post: be responsible, take responsibility for your actions. If you're not willing to take responsibility, then don't do the action for the outcome you would need to be responsible. Just because we can't agree on what is moral doesn't mean there aren't universal moral laws. A lot of what abortion is caused by is selfish, irresponsible behavior. Stop being selfish. Stop being irresponsible.

                If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                  Thanks for the reply. Still, I see you don't seem to disagree with the main point of my post: be responsible, take responsibility for your actions. If you're not willing to take responsibility, then don't do the action for the outcome you would need to be responsible. Just because we can't agree on what is moral doesn't mean there aren't universal moral laws. A lot of what abortion is caused by is selfish, irresponsible behavior. Stop being selfish. Stop being irresponsible.

                  If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                  You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                  R Giskard Reventlov
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #14

                  As I said, the sentiments are sound, it's the implementation that is impractical. Even the most moral of people (by whose measure?) have sex and not always responsibly. You just can't legislate for human behavior.

                  "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                  • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                    Dalek Dave wrote:

                    interfere in someone elses lives and relationships

                    No, I don't unless their behavior negatively impinges on my or other's lives.

                    Dalek Dave wrote:

                    definition of licentious behaviour

                    It's true we'd all have to come to an understanding of terms, but I think there's at least a minimum overlap there. My main point is to be responsible for your actions, be moral. I do think I have a right to tell others how to act when those actions negatively affect me.

                    Dalek Dave wrote:

                    Posit - Would you let one child die to save the other three?

                    Maybe, depends on the situation.

                    Dalek Dave wrote:

                    run for President

                    Not on your life! The only person that should be President is the one who doesn't want it.

                    If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                    You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                    R Offline
                    R Giskard Reventlov
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #15

                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                    The only person that should be President is the one who doesn't want it.

                    I don't want it. Gimme, gimme, gimme... :)

                    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                    • Z ZurdoDev

                      Not a popular opinion in this forum. The funny thing is a lot people in this forum think their opinion is the popular one because this is the only forum they are on, or ones similar like it. I am just glad to see someone stand up for what is right even when it is not popular. Thank you.

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                      TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #16

                      I knew it wouldn't be. But I knew also I had to speak my mind. It's time for the silent majority to stop being silent. Silence is the voice of complicity. It's time, past time to stand up for what is right. It's time to act on what is right. It's time to do what is right.

                      If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                      You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                      • R R Giskard Reventlov

                        As I said, the sentiments are sound, it's the implementation that is impractical. Even the most moral of people (by whose measure?) have sex and not always responsibly. You just can't legislate for human behavior.

                        "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me

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                        TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #17

                        mark merrens wrote:

                        impractical

                        I disagree. It's the most practical of all. Difficult to convince and perform? Yes. Possible? Yes. Probable? No. Certainly not by all.

                        mark merrens wrote:

                        You just can't legislate for human behavior.

                        I get your point, even if it's not entirely true. (Otherwise, why laws against rape, murder, robbery, etc? Are those not human behaviors?) I may not be able to legislate, but speaking out and teaching is possible. Of course, people have to be willing to listen.

                        If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                        You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                        • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                          The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.

                          If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                          You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                          L Offline
                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #18

                          OK, so I have read some of your responces to peoples replies and I have a simple thing for you to understand.

                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                          Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape.

                          Rapists do not have the abortion, the women impregnated with their rapists child does. They can not control being raped. Same goes with children. The child did not make the choice, so yes abortion is still needed here. I won't bother with the others because your responce to this tells me your 'real' name, and then you can be slayed.

                          Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                          • L Lost User

                            OK, so I have read some of your responces to peoples replies and I have a simple thing for you to understand.

                            ahmed zahmed wrote:

                            Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape.

                            Rapists do not have the abortion, the women impregnated with their rapists child does. They can not control being raped. Same goes with children. The child did not make the choice, so yes abortion is still needed here. I won't bother with the others because your responce to this tells me your 'real' name, and then you can be slayed.

                            Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                            TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #19

                            Give me a break. If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop. And so would lives being destroyed by rape stop. Do I think my saying "Stop Raping!" will make it all stop??? Of course not! But that is the real answer to abortion needed for pregnancy due to rape: stop raping!

                            If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                            You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                            • L Lost User

                              OK, so I have read some of your responces to peoples replies and I have a simple thing for you to understand.

                              ahmed zahmed wrote:

                              Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape.

                              Rapists do not have the abortion, the women impregnated with their rapists child does. They can not control being raped. Same goes with children. The child did not make the choice, so yes abortion is still needed here. I won't bother with the others because your responce to this tells me your 'real' name, and then you can be slayed.

                              Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                              L Offline
                              Lost User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #20

                              You can not control that one may commit a crime. This is a fact. Inevitably a crime is committed but a society has no write to force a victim of a crime to make such a desicion. You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.

                              Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                              • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                                The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.

                                If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                                K Offline
                                Keith Barrow
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #21

                                But I'm not going to change it.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place

                                . Who defines this morality? God is not a viable answer: many people don't believe in god. Amongst those that do there is a wide range of opinion about what is moral and what is not. I would suggest not allowing women to choose to abort (within certain limits - obviously a 39th week abortion is pretty much murder) is immoral, because an unwanted baby and its parents could suffer more.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.)

                                About the only thing I agree with.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome.

                                As DD has pointed out, teenagers are biologically programmed to start having sex, this is also the peak of fertility. These two things coincide for a reason, evolution. You are fighting human nature on this one.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone).

                                Suddenly the sorts of people who will commit rape will stop doing it on somebody's say so? No, because they don't care, this will continue to happen unfortunately. And you want to block the women's ability to prevent the life-long reminder of probably the most traumatic thing she'll go through being born.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape).

                                If they are children, then by definition they are unable to conceive, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you mean don't commit incest or have sex with adolescents, then fine, but it has the same problems as raping women, it is only likely to continue and by getting rid of abortion you could force the victim into a lifelong reminder of what they went through.

                                ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to.

                                What does that mean? Who defines this? I assume by "someone you're meant to" you mean wife, if so, what about the many unma

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                                • T TheGreatAndPowerfulOz

                                  Give me a break. If men stop raping women and children, then unwanted pregnancy from the raping would stop. And so would lives being destroyed by rape stop. Do I think my saying "Stop Raping!" will make it all stop??? Of course not! But that is the real answer to abortion needed for pregnancy due to rape: stop raping!

                                  If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                  You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                                  K Offline
                                  Keith Barrow
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #22

                                  ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                  Give me a break.

                                  Why? You must have known this sort of thing was the likely outcome of your post.

                                  ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                  If men stop raping women and childre

                                  It is a big if. In fact I'd say it's never going to happen as long as there are humans about. What should happen in the mean time?

                                  Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                                  -Or-
                                  A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                                  • D Dalek Dave

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

                                    Super, however the 200,000 years of human evolution has yet to discover how to stop teenagers fucking.

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape.

                                    Agreed, but again, historically it has been used as a weapon of war. (qv Bosnia, Middle East, Barbaross etc)

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest.

                                    Don't have sex with anyone's children, but then define children? In Britain the age of consent is 16, in the US 18, in The Netherlands as young as 12 - should there be a world agreement on what constitutes a child?

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior.

                                    Please define "someone you're not supposed to". Please define "licentious behavior" And what of Adultery, whose concern is it but those who are involved?

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included)

                                    Actually, evolution has taken care of that little problem. This is rather cold, but is evolutionarily sound. It is evolutionarily better that the child dies and the mother gets on and breeds another than the mother dies possibly leaving other child without a mother. That is hardwired into every creature further evolved than an amoeba.

                                    ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                    Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.

                                    That is a rather crude phrase, and it is not acurate. Babies cannot be killed, that would be murder. Foetuses can be terminated, but given that they are tiny parasites living inside the mother and could not exist outside and have no brain nor experiences it cannot be classified as murder. Inflammatory descriptions do not aid your cause. I also noted that

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                                    Keith Barrow
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #23

                                    Dalek Dave wrote:

                                    Super, however the 200,000 years of human evolution has yet to discover how to stop teenagers f***ing.

                                    Almost as hard as it was to get started f***ing, IIRC :). This comment alone earned you a 5. BTW

                                    Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                                    -Or-
                                    A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                                    • L Lost User

                                      You can not control that one may commit a crime. This is a fact. Inevitably a crime is committed but a society has no write to force a victim of a crime to make such a desicion. You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.

                                      Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.

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                                      TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #24

                                      No, nobody can directly control another's actions. I can say: Don't rape, don't commit crime. I can try to prevent it beforehand. I can teach what is moral, what is right and what is wrong. I can teach consequences. I can teach responsibility and being responsible.

                                      Collin Jasnoch wrote:

                                      You imply that society has this right upon victims or anyone for that matter.

                                      No, I'm not implying that at all. To abort is a personal decision and a solemn one. I certainly agree abortion should be legal in certain instances. What I am saying is none of this would be an issue at all if people would 1) first, do no harm to others, 2) be aware that your actions have consequences, 3) take responsibility for those actions, either beforehand or afterward. 4) if beforehand, don't have sex, if afterward, then take responsibility for the life you've created. 5) If you don't want to take responsibility for that life, then don't create it in the first place, otherwise man-up!

                                      If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                      You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                                      • K Keith Barrow

                                        ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                        Give me a break.

                                        Why? You must have known this sort of thing was the likely outcome of your post.

                                        ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                        If men stop raping women and childre

                                        It is a big if. In fact I'd say it's never going to happen as long as there are humans about. What should happen in the mean time?

                                        Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
                                        -Or-
                                        A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]

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                                        TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #25

                                        I expected people to disagree. But I was asking to be given a break from distorting what I said.

                                        Keith Barrow wrote:

                                        In fact I'd say it's never going to happen

                                        I don't agree. We certainly have to try.

                                        Keith Barrow wrote:

                                        What should happen in the mean time?

                                        Like I've said elsewhere, I agree abortion should be legal in certain instances.

                                        If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                        You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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                                        • K Keith Barrow

                                          But I'm not going to change it.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place

                                          . Who defines this morality? God is not a viable answer: many people don't believe in god. Amongst those that do there is a wide range of opinion about what is moral and what is not. I would suggest not allowing women to choose to abort (within certain limits - obviously a 39th week abortion is pretty much murder) is immoral, because an unwanted baby and its parents could suffer more.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.)

                                          About the only thing I agree with.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome.

                                          As DD has pointed out, teenagers are biologically programmed to start having sex, this is also the peak of fertility. These two things coincide for a reason, evolution. You are fighting human nature on this one.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone).

                                          Suddenly the sorts of people who will commit rape will stop doing it on somebody's say so? No, because they don't care, this will continue to happen unfortunately. And you want to block the women's ability to prevent the life-long reminder of probably the most traumatic thing she'll go through being born.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape).

                                          If they are children, then by definition they are unable to conceive, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you mean don't commit incest or have sex with adolescents, then fine, but it has the same problems as raping women, it is only likely to continue and by getting rid of abortion you could force the victim into a lifelong reminder of what they went through.

                                          ahmed zahmed wrote:

                                          Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to.

                                          What does that mean? Who defines this? I assume by "someone you're meant to" you mean wife, if so, what about the many unma

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                                          TheGreatAndPowerfulOz
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #26

                                          LOL. I'll take your one vote as a +5. Nowhere in my post did I say abortion should not be available. Indeed, I think it should be available under certain circumstances. Rape being one of them. I believe I've answered your other points with my reply to DD.

                                          If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
                                          You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun

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