Abortion
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ryanb31 wrote:
So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
Your english comprehension skills are about as clear as mud. If you are going to make an accusation such as that, perhaps you could be intelligent enough to provide a quote to back your claim. I have said nothing of the sort in any of my comments.
ryanb31 wrote:
And by the way, you do not know how to interpret the Bible.
Ah yes. The wonderful "Only believers can know interpret the bible" argument. Yes, that is a great rational way to discuss something. Perhaps you can explain to me why this is the case?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Ok, I'll hold your hand through this since you are a little slow. You said
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And the religious conveniently justify their hideous behavior
So, I sarcastically replied
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You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that.
Ok, so far you said religious people justify their hideous behavior. This thread was about trying to prevent the reasons we have abortion. So it sounded like you were saying the religious were hideous in trying to stop rapes, for example? You still with me? I know it is a lot. So, then YOU said
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It is hideous, yes. How dare religious people do that!
So, yes YOU said that it is hideous for people to try to prevent rape. Still with me? And because that seems absurd, even for you, I rephrased to make sure I understood and I said
Quote:
So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
I am NOT putting words in your mouth. I asked if you thought it was hideous for religious people to try and prevent rape and you said yes. I asked you to clarify and then you say I am the one who does not understand English. I am quoting YOU. You also said
Quote:
provide a quote to back your claim.
which I did quote you in both of my posts. Where did I lose you? This isn't really that hard. Maybe I need more "take off 'eh?" and then you will understand what I am saying, eh? And, secondly, about the Bible. It was written by men who were inspired through the Spirit by God, so YES, YES, YES, it can only be interpreted correctly through the Spirit. Thank you for agreeing.
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Why? I have no one to answer to. It's interesting that you want to work so hard to eliminate abortion which results from rape or child abuse but what about the underlying issue of violence towards women? Isn't abortion in that case a minor side issue? What about abused women who don't fall pregnant? Social programs targeting violence towards women are something I'm happy to see government spend my tax dollar on. Does that make me a liberal?
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ryanb31 wrote:
You have proof everywhere that God exists, you just ignore it.
I disagree. I have proof that the universe exists, that the earth exists, and that I exist. Why, because I am self-aware and aware of my environment. I see no proof there that god exists. Perhaps you can enlighten me on that proof. I'll gladly look at any proof you may have, but you will have to be willing to read the rebuttals as well.
ryanb31 wrote:
How do we know it is not a matrix situation and you are merely a program? Just saying.
We don't. I would never have the arrogance to claim that I have an answer for everything. The difference is that I don't need to have a catch-all to explain what I don't understand.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
You say you exist because you are self-aware. Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't. The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe. I have heard all of the rebuttals. I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God, which is fine, and in other forums I am praised for believing in God. This group is quite godless for some reason. The proof is simple. Open your eyes, it is everywhere. It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing. It was created from God. However, for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work. Spiritual proof is both intellectual and in the heart. Godless people are strictly intellectual types (not necessarily intelligent) so they can NEVER understand anything spiritual, even the most basic concepts, such as God existing. You will never understand God until you first understand what your relationship with Him is. It would be like me trying to teach you calculus without you even understanding addition and subtraction. It would be impossible. So, I give you the physical proof of everything and you chose to deny it. If you had an open heart, then we could continue on in the proof of spiritual items, but until then, there is no point.
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Answering to yourself is just as important (if not more IMO) than anyone (or any"thing" else)
" So, you are the supreme being? How nice not to have to answer to anyone else. You can make up your own rules and whatever you do is right because there is no one and nothing higher? Wish I could convince myself to think that way.
Could be. Not sure. I have never crushed a man's skull with my mind, but then again I have never really tried. But I do not see how that is relevant. My point is if you can not answer to yourself for judging then obviously you are guilty. Judging oneself is the first judgement as you would not do something if you thought about it and decided it was wrong. That is why it is the most important. I do not need some super zombie lord or his zombie followers telling me what is right and wrong. I know because I listen to my fellow man.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Why? I have no one to answer to. It's interesting that you want to work so hard to eliminate abortion which results from rape or child abuse but what about the underlying issue of violence towards women? Isn't abortion in that case a minor side issue? What about abused women who don't fall pregnant? Social programs targeting violence towards women are something I'm happy to see government spend my tax dollar on. Does that make me a liberal?
_Josh_ wrote:
what about the underlying issue of violence towards women?
Indeed, solve that and you solve the rape issue too.
_Josh_ wrote:
Does that make me a liberal?
Not at all. That makes you caring. As if being liberal is something bad.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Ok, I'll hold your hand through this since you are a little slow. You said
Quote:
And the religious conveniently justify their hideous behavior
So, I sarcastically replied
Quote:
You're right. It is "hideous behavior" to try and prevent unwed sex, incest, rape, abuse, etc. How dare religious people do that.
Ok, so far you said religious people justify their hideous behavior. This thread was about trying to prevent the reasons we have abortion. So it sounded like you were saying the religious were hideous in trying to stop rapes, for example? You still with me? I know it is a lot. So, then YOU said
Quote:
It is hideous, yes. How dare religious people do that!
So, yes YOU said that it is hideous for people to try to prevent rape. Still with me? And because that seems absurd, even for you, I rephrased to make sure I understood and I said
Quote:
So, to be clear, you ARE saying it is wrong for people to try and prevent rape?
I am NOT putting words in your mouth. I asked if you thought it was hideous for religious people to try and prevent rape and you said yes. I asked you to clarify and then you say I am the one who does not understand English. I am quoting YOU. You also said
Quote:
provide a quote to back your claim.
which I did quote you in both of my posts. Where did I lose you? This isn't really that hard. Maybe I need more "take off 'eh?" and then you will understand what I am saying, eh? And, secondly, about the Bible. It was written by men who were inspired through the Spirit by God, so YES, YES, YES, it can only be interpreted correctly through the Spirit. Thank you for agreeing.
ryanb31 wrote:
You also said
Quote:
provide a quote to back your claim.
which I did quote you in both of my posts.
Really. Where? I reread all the posts you have made. Not even once have you formulated any kind of a logical comment. This post is about as close as you have come, and if that is all you are capable of, then I pity you.
ryanb31 wrote:
It was written by men who were inspired through the Spirit by God, so YES, YES, YES, it can only be interpreted correctly through the Spirit.
Too funny. And which one of the million interpretations for the book coming from believers all over the planet and throughout the ages is the right one. Let me guess. Only the interpretation from you or that made by the church you attend is the "right" one.
ryanb31 wrote:
Maybe I need more "take off 'eh?"
:doh: Really. Are you really that juvenile?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Read it all again. What do you think given the context of the conversation and the road we were travelling before you joined in? BTW: your tone is abrasive and combative: no wonder your points total is so low - you need to learny to play nice with others or you'll get short shrift - we're here for fun, not to be shredded every time we say something you think you can jump on when you feel like it. My gut feeling is that you're a stroppy teenager who thinks (like we all did!) that we know everything. Trust me: you know nothing! Happy to be proved wrong but it is how you're coming across.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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You say you exist because you are self-aware. Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't. The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe. I have heard all of the rebuttals. I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God, which is fine, and in other forums I am praised for believing in God. This group is quite godless for some reason. The proof is simple. Open your eyes, it is everywhere. It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing. It was created from God. However, for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work. Spiritual proof is both intellectual and in the heart. Godless people are strictly intellectual types (not necessarily intelligent) so they can NEVER understand anything spiritual, even the most basic concepts, such as God existing. You will never understand God until you first understand what your relationship with Him is. It would be like me trying to teach you calculus without you even understanding addition and subtraction. It would be impossible. So, I give you the physical proof of everything and you chose to deny it. If you had an open heart, then we could continue on in the proof of spiritual items, but until then, there is no point.
ryanb31 wrote:
Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't.
Go watch the movie again. The people in the matrix did exist. It was their life in the matrix that was a fabrication.
ryanb31 wrote:
The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe.
What exactly do I believe that I have no proof for?
ryanb31 wrote:
I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God
Wrong, you get downvoted for being an arrogant twat. There are many people here who are christian, muslim, jew, hindu, or any other number of religious viewpoints. No one gets downvoted for believing in their sky-pixie of choice. If there is a downvote, it is becuase the post is either irrelevant, silly, or arrogant.
ryanb31 wrote:
It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing.
Agreed. But in no way, shape or form does that imply that some sky pixie made it. As for that, where did your sky pixie come from? Did it come from nothing?
ryanb31 wrote:
for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work.
Ah yes, the good ol' "I'm smarter than ya' because the Spirit tells me so" argument. This is the type of arrogance that destroys any credibility your arguments contain. What makes you think I can't understand how "spiritual" things work, by the way?
ryanb31 wrote:
If you had an open heart,
If I had an "open heart" then I probably would have ended up sleeping with a lot more girls who I chose not to because I used my head in which case the original topic may have had more personal relevance than it does now. :)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunSo if I'm sterile (vasectomies do work) then I can basically have sex with anyone. What utter moralistic bullshit. You stand does not take into account the way people are and assumes that sex has only 1 function - procreation.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Read it all again. What do you think given the context of the conversation and the road we were travelling before you joined in? BTW: your tone is abrasive and combative: no wonder your points total is so low - you need to learny to play nice with others or you'll get short shrift - we're here for fun, not to be shredded every time we say something you think you can jump on when you feel like it. My gut feeling is that you're a stroppy teenager who thinks (like we all did!) that we know everything. Trust me: you know nothing! Happy to be proved wrong but it is how you're coming across.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
You won't make him understand, I don't think he works the same as everyone else. He will always and every time read and understand the same thing out of it. Just a matter of filtering. Making laws punishing a bad thing that is already happening will not make said thing go away, it doesn't work like that, if it did we would have almost no crime, only the insane would commit criminal acts.
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I expected people to disagree. But I was asking to be given a break from distorting what I said.
Keith Barrow wrote:
In fact I'd say it's never going to happen
I don't agree. We certainly have to try.
Keith Barrow wrote:
What should happen in the mean time?
Like I've said elsewhere, I agree abortion should be legal in certain instances.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunWhat do you mean we? You can't do shit about it. It's human erm nature, it happens that sometimes people are sick and lack some moral stops or have urges they cannot control. Either education or natural accident and you can't control either, not in any meaningful way. It's not enough telling 1000 kids that it's wrong to rape, you have no idea how and what they think and how they will absorb that piece of information.
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Read it all again. What do you think given the context of the conversation and the road we were travelling before you joined in? BTW: your tone is abrasive and combative: no wonder your points total is so low - you need to learny to play nice with others or you'll get short shrift - we're here for fun, not to be shredded every time we say something you think you can jump on when you feel like it. My gut feeling is that you're a stroppy teenager who thinks (like we all did!) that we know everything. Trust me: you know nothing! Happy to be proved wrong but it is how you're coming across.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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ryanb31 wrote:
You also said
Quote:
provide a quote to back your claim.
which I did quote you in both of my posts.
Really. Where? I reread all the posts you have made. Not even once have you formulated any kind of a logical comment. This post is about as close as you have come, and if that is all you are capable of, then I pity you.
ryanb31 wrote:
It was written by men who were inspired through the Spirit by God, so YES, YES, YES, it can only be interpreted correctly through the Spirit.
Too funny. And which one of the million interpretations for the book coming from believers all over the planet and throughout the ages is the right one. Let me guess. Only the interpretation from you or that made by the church you attend is the "right" one.
ryanb31 wrote:
Maybe I need more "take off 'eh?"
:doh: Really. Are you really that juvenile?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't.
Go watch the movie again. The people in the matrix did exist. It was their life in the matrix that was a fabrication.
ryanb31 wrote:
The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe.
What exactly do I believe that I have no proof for?
ryanb31 wrote:
I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God
Wrong, you get downvoted for being an arrogant twat. There are many people here who are christian, muslim, jew, hindu, or any other number of religious viewpoints. No one gets downvoted for believing in their sky-pixie of choice. If there is a downvote, it is becuase the post is either irrelevant, silly, or arrogant.
ryanb31 wrote:
It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing.
Agreed. But in no way, shape or form does that imply that some sky pixie made it. As for that, where did your sky pixie come from? Did it come from nothing?
ryanb31 wrote:
for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work.
Ah yes, the good ol' "I'm smarter than ya' because the Spirit tells me so" argument. This is the type of arrogance that destroys any credibility your arguments contain. What makes you think I can't understand how "spiritual" things work, by the way?
ryanb31 wrote:
If you had an open heart,
If I had an "open heart" then I probably would have ended up sleeping with a lot more girls who I chose not to because I used my head in which case the original topic may have had more personal relevance than it does now. :)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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What do you mean we? You can't do shit about it. It's human erm nature, it happens that sometimes people are sick and lack some moral stops or have urges they cannot control. Either education or natural accident and you can't control either, not in any meaningful way. It's not enough telling 1000 kids that it's wrong to rape, you have no idea how and what they think and how they will absorb that piece of information.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Everyone in the matrix thought they existed, thought they were self-aware, but they weren't.
Go watch the movie again. The people in the matrix did exist. It was their life in the matrix that was a fabrication.
ryanb31 wrote:
The matrix is silly but my point is you do not have proof for what you believe.
What exactly do I believe that I have no proof for?
ryanb31 wrote:
I get downvoted all the time in this forum for believing in God
Wrong, you get downvoted for being an arrogant twat. There are many people here who are christian, muslim, jew, hindu, or any other number of religious viewpoints. No one gets downvoted for believing in their sky-pixie of choice. If there is a downvote, it is becuase the post is either irrelevant, silly, or arrogant.
ryanb31 wrote:
It is not possible for the universe and everything to have been created from nothing.
Agreed. But in no way, shape or form does that imply that some sky pixie made it. As for that, where did your sky pixie come from? Did it come from nothing?
ryanb31 wrote:
for you to accept that you must understand how spiritual things work.
Ah yes, the good ol' "I'm smarter than ya' because the Spirit tells me so" argument. This is the type of arrogance that destroys any credibility your arguments contain. What makes you think I can't understand how "spiritual" things work, by the way?
ryanb31 wrote:
If you had an open heart,
If I had an "open heart" then I probably would have ended up sleeping with a lot more girls who I chose not to because I used my head in which case the original topic may have had more personal relevance than it does now. :)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
I stopped responding to him last night: My suspicion then was that he is trolling. The fact that he has started to open up this topic again to get a second round in, coupled to him accusing you of trolling pretty much confirms it in my view.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
It's also human nature to be lazy and selfish. Should we just limit ourselves to what is natural or should we try and rise above it?
I tried being selfless and help a stranger, all I got from it was a hurt knee. I knew he had no place driving in the snow by how badly he was executing the get out of the icy place maneuvers. I still helped, I got my reward. Anyway, I am waiting for the method of changing humans. Never saw one that works. And after that comes another problem, in which direction do you change them, who decides what needs to be changed and how? Other humans who deem themselves to not need changing? Who are those? Like Jesus I would say let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Depending on what "the people" decide what sin is and what the stone is.
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I tried being selfless and help a stranger, all I got from it was a hurt knee. I knew he had no place driving in the snow by how badly he was executing the get out of the icy place maneuvers. I still helped, I got my reward. Anyway, I am waiting for the method of changing humans. Never saw one that works. And after that comes another problem, in which direction do you change them, who decides what needs to be changed and how? Other humans who deem themselves to not need changing? Who are those? Like Jesus I would say let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Depending on what "the people" decide what sin is and what the stone is.
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The real answer for abortion is being morally responsible about sex in the first place. People (men and women) need to understand that the choice is made at the time of intercourse that you will be responsible for the potential outcome: life. (Even if you're using contraception, a pregnancy is still possible. Contraception is not 100% foolproof.) Don't have sex until you're ready and able to be responsible for the possible outcome. Hence, no need for abortion to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Don't rape women (indeed, don't rape anyone). Hence, no need for abortion because of rape. Don't have sex with your children (just another form of rape). Hence, no need for abortion because of incest. Don't have sex with someone you're not supposed to. Hence, no need for abortion because of adultery or licentious behavior. That leaves only abortion for the life & health of the mother. A relatively rare instance. In many cases, the mother would rather give her life (my wife included). Do I believe this is possible, yes. Do I believe it probable, no. Still that's the only real, viable solution. Wanton killing of babies because you are irresponsible and life is inconvenient is not a moral choice, is not a moral stance.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunAbout abortion, whatever the morale stance pragmatism wins. When abortion is made illegal, it happens anyway, in terrible conditions for womens with many casualties, and in foreign countries where it is legal for the ones who can afford it. So, in one hand deaths of human beings, in another destructions of embryos, which are "multicellular diploid eukaryotes in their earliest stage of development" (dixit Wikipedia)... I consider the former more serious than the latter. I have also many doubt for the future of a child who is not wanted by his/her mother. Sometimes it may be better not to be born than having a shitty life. Anyway, "Don't rape women" would be a good thing to enforce. How millions women are raped, most often by their husbands they did not want to marry, who force them to have sex? Billions maybe? Sounds to me a much more important and serious debate than abortion... question of values I presume.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
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If you are going to use a Jesus reference then let Jesus decide what sin is. Teaching true gospel principles changes behavior. I have seen it so many times I know it works.