Affirmative action..Why it's wrong?
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Mabey I missed something....it did seem that you are pro AA. Mabey I am not following your argument. I did notice the quote "never judge another mans life until u have walked in his mocasins for 3 moons" Which is a great quote. But in this situation I would point you toward an old saying of my people. "Ho! Mitakuye Oyasin" "We are all related" Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
what im saying is that until ppl have a taste of what the injustice is like they are not concerned to change anything ... history has numerous examples that support this no im not in favor of discrimination of any sort ... it has caused (and still does cause) 90% of the worlds troubles to redress the balance those who have suffered must be "compensated" in some way to make them feel better and to undo the damage of the past injustices and those who have perpetrated the injustices should have a taste of their own medicine to see how it feels and hopefully make them never do it again isnt that how the criminal justice system works more or less?
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
u do make me laugh on the one hand u criticize paul for his "naive belief that we live in a perfect world" and on the other hand u advocate we should all live happily ever after in such a perfect world discrimination exists and thats a fact ... to address the inbalance caused by history a little nudge on the opposite side will help while the rest of the human race gets its head out of its ass and sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" (assuming they can program) thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" Yes, but the policies now require hiring a black women as a programmer ignoring if they can read or add. That means those that do the programming have to do more and leads to hatred based on race/gender or what ever. "I will find a new sig someday."
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'k... So who, exactly, needs to get punished here? And if that's all it is, why not just be blunt about it and *call* it punishment.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
im not saying "punish" as such but when i hear bleating from the transgressor when they get a taste of their own medicine i think "shut the f**k up and now taste how it sux to be doing what u have been doing ... will u stop it now?" seems thats how we have built our society so why change it just cos the top cats (ie, white hetrosexual christian men) start to get a bit less than top treatment?
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
lauren wrote: dont want to start a flame war or nothing but... Kewl! A flame war! Will there be Live Coverage on CNN? :-D
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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lauren wrote: sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" Yes, but the policies now require hiring a black women as a programmer ignoring if they can read or add. That means those that do the programming have to do more and leads to hatred based on race/gender or what ever. "I will find a new sig someday."
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I believe that to give a person an i>opportunity that they would not normally have due to economic or educational background is different than making that person a doctor. If they are given the opportunity to attend, then it is up to them to succeed. It should be improper for them to say "I did not succeed because others held me back, and therefore I must be given this degree." Another question is: if you want to achieve diversity, how do you measure it? If you measure diversity by race, then there is no way to achieve diversity without using race as a factor. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: Another question is: if you want to achieve diversity, how do you measure it? If you measure diversity by race, then there is no way to achieve diversity without using race as a factor. This where I think we went wrong. Diversity is IMHO a political construct. What realy needs to be achived is equality. A state of affairs where peoples race and gender are never taken into account in hiring practices, credit ratings, collage admission etc... Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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lauren wrote: and .... worse for who exactly? I don't think it makes it any worse. But I do think it does harm in that it generates resement that may not have already been there and does nothing to change what is truly in a person's heart toward others. In other words, I think it helps matain a status quo where people are forced to weigh another person's value based on race and gender. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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u do make me laugh on the one hand u criticize paul for his "naive belief that we live in a perfect world" and on the other hand u advocate we should all live happily ever after in such a perfect world discrimination exists and thats a fact ... to address the inbalance caused by history a little nudge on the opposite side will help while the rest of the human race gets its head out of its ass and sees "geeee hiring gay black women as programmers is actually cool" (assuming they can program) thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme But affirmative action is grossly OVER CORRECTING the problem. If a ship is at sea and headed in the wrong direction (discriminating against a race of people), if you turn things around 360 degrees (decide to discriminate another race) you are still moving in the wrong direction. Where is the progress? Is it ok to now start to discriminate in the opposite direction to correct an injustice? I have heard way to many time for example that the black man has to be given a bigger chance at a job or an education because they have been wronged for so many years. Let's get a few things straight: 1 - I am NOT against any race. 2 - I have never participated in oppression of people of color 3 - I have never lived in the south 4 - None of my family has ever owned a slave 5 - I never put a Japanese person in any camp, hell, I was not even born yet. Why should I have the potential to loose a position to a black person simply because he is black? Clearly I have never taken part in the oppression of the black race. Why should I be punished? Simply put, what makes that person better than me simply because he is a different color? I bet many black people have asked themselves that very same question… All affirmative action does is a give establishments a mark to meet to show that they are being politically correct. It does not fix things. If a college is forced to keep a 5% ratio then all they have to do is keep 5%. Why not 10? Or 20% or 50/50? Can a place be sued for turning away a black applicant once they have met their 'quota'? I bet it gets way harder to prove discrimination once that quota is met. Affirmative action is a 'hand out' not a 'hand up'.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
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what im saying is that until ppl have a taste of what the injustice is like they are not concerned to change anything ... history has numerous examples that support this no im not in favor of discrimination of any sort ... it has caused (and still does cause) 90% of the worlds troubles to redress the balance those who have suffered must be "compensated" in some way to make them feel better and to undo the damage of the past injustices and those who have perpetrated the injustices should have a taste of their own medicine to see how it feels and hopefully make them never do it again isnt that how the criminal justice system works more or less?
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: isnt that how the criminal justice system works more or less? Sure, but if some person has never wronged anyone should her / she be punished for the actions of others. Should Italians be feed to the lions for the christians to recive retribution? Punish the offenders not those who are simply the same color or gender. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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im not saying "punish" as such but when i hear bleating from the transgressor when they get a taste of their own medicine i think "shut the f**k up and now taste how it sux to be doing what u have been doing ... will u stop it now?" seems thats how we have built our society so why change it just cos the top cats (ie, white hetrosexual christian men) start to get a bit less than top treatment?
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: im not saying "punish" as such but when i hear bleating from the transgressor when they get a taste of their own medicine 'k, well, i don't know Tim all that well, so i hadn't heard about the problems with his hiring / admittance policies. lauren wrote: seems thats how we have built our society so why change it just cos the top cats (ie, white hetrosexual christian men) start to get a bit less than top treatment? See, that's the problem - our nature is such that such a change seems completely wrong: why *shouldn't* we favor certain people over others of equal merit? But as appealing as it seems, it is both dangerous and immoral to do so. Perhaps it is unduly naive to hope for a world where people are not judged on appearance or nationality... but it is still our duty to condemn unfair discrimination when we see it.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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what im saying is that until ppl have a taste of what the injustice is like they are not concerned to change anything ... history has numerous examples that support this no im not in favor of discrimination of any sort ... it has caused (and still does cause) 90% of the worlds troubles to redress the balance those who have suffered must be "compensated" in some way to make them feel better and to undo the damage of the past injustices and those who have perpetrated the injustices should have a taste of their own medicine to see how it feels and hopefully make them never do it again isnt that how the criminal justice system works more or less?
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: to redress the balance those who have suffered must be "compensated" in some way to make them feel better and to undo the damage of the past injustices Then punish the people that have done the discrimination (schools/banks/corporations/etc...), don't punish the poor guy walking in off the street that is a perfect fit for a job that he really needs. What the hell did he do? AA does NOT hurt the transgressors, they simply do what they are now told to do and hire a certain quota of minorities (the result of a basic slap on the wrist).
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
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lauren wrote: thinking the ship that has been sailing on the wrong course for the last 2000 years or more will magically correct itself is naive in the extreme But affirmative action is grossly OVER CORRECTING the problem. If a ship is at sea and headed in the wrong direction (discriminating against a race of people), if you turn things around 360 degrees (decide to discriminate another race) you are still moving in the wrong direction. Where is the progress? Is it ok to now start to discriminate in the opposite direction to correct an injustice? I have heard way to many time for example that the black man has to be given a bigger chance at a job or an education because they have been wronged for so many years. Let's get a few things straight: 1 - I am NOT against any race. 2 - I have never participated in oppression of people of color 3 - I have never lived in the south 4 - None of my family has ever owned a slave 5 - I never put a Japanese person in any camp, hell, I was not even born yet. Why should I have the potential to loose a position to a black person simply because he is black? Clearly I have never taken part in the oppression of the black race. Why should I be punished? Simply put, what makes that person better than me simply because he is a different color? I bet many black people have asked themselves that very same question… All affirmative action does is a give establishments a mark to meet to show that they are being politically correct. It does not fix things. If a college is forced to keep a 5% ratio then all they have to do is keep 5%. Why not 10? Or 20% or 50/50? Can a place be sued for turning away a black applicant once they have met their 'quota'? I bet it gets way harder to prove discrimination once that quota is met. Affirmative action is a 'hand out' not a 'hand up'.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
who said 360 degress? so u havnt discriminated against anyone so the world is fine then? forcing the dominant species to give opportunities to the less privieledged IS a way of making people see that color makes no difference to ability sorry but this is exactly the reaction (bleating) i was talking about
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
lauren wrote: but -10 + 10 == 0 And then NO ONE is any better off. Do you think that a person that knows they make it into a job simply because they filled a quota honestly feels any better?
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
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lauren wrote: if the people who have been discriminating have to tase their own medicine they may be less willing to dole it out in the future Hmm... what an interesting thought... I wonder where else this "Do unto others what you'd really like them not to do to you" tactic would work out... *shog ponders sending US suicide bombers into the middle east... must be some use for all these depressed teenagers...*
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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lauren wrote: but -10 + 10 == 0 And then NO ONE is any better off. Do you think that a person that knows they make it into a job simply because they filled a quota honestly feels any better?
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
Ray Cassick wrote: Do you think that a person that knows they make it into a job simply because they filled a quota honestly feels any better? yup if it means s/he can feed their family and do a job they are capable of doing
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
lauren wrote: isnt that how the criminal justice system works more or less? Sure, but if some person has never wronged anyone should her / she be punished for the actions of others. Should Italians be feed to the lions for the christians to recive retribution? Punish the offenders not those who are simply the same color or gender. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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lauren wrote: if the people who have been discriminating have to tase their own medicine they may be less willing to dole it out in the future I guess I am not following you here. As an example I ask you how is an idealistic 18 year old white guy responsable for doling out anything wrong to anybody? Don't you think this is just a silly cycle where people are just biding their time to get back at "those people?" Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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Michael Dunn wrote: "Affirmative action" is a euphemism for "discrimination against caucasians", nothing more. I agree. Wanna piss everybody off? Hold the first annual "white heterosexual male only" gathering. I suppose we brought it upon our selves, though. How many years did we partake in slavery, then later, segregation? How long did we hold the Japenese Americans in concentration camps during WWII? The US, thank God, get's a wee bit better each year toward treating everybody equally, but of course, we've still got a long way to go. Affirmative Action, though, has never been the way to do it, however, in my humble opinion. Kyosa Jamie Nordmeyer - Cho Dan Portland, Oregon, USA
Jamie Nordmeyer wrote: How many years did we partake in slavery, then later, segregation? How long did we hold the Japenese Americans in concentration camps during WWII? Uhmm me thinks you have been watching to much Star Trek Next Generation and paid to much attention to the Klingon Society. No offense intended, but this is reality, and the planet earth, not the Klingon Home Planet.... As far as I remember (although it may be changing these days).. THE SINS OF THE PARENTS ARE ***NOT*** INHERITED BY THEIR CHILDREN.. (although as I said, it seems like certain groups would love to change that). /CMH
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Michael Dunn wrote: "Affirmative action" is a euphemism for "discrimination against caucasians", nothing more. But the real victims, I heard, are not caucasians. Some published research shows that other minority groups, especially asians, suffered the most because of AA. Also heard people saying that asians are already over-represented when it comes to college admissions and scholarships, etc. , while blacks are under-represented. Just wondering if the same people will also try to increase the asian representation in various sports. Can you imagine NBA will pick Yao Ming just to increase diversity?
I have often wondered why it is racist to say that one race is more intelligent than another (even if you have statistical evidence to support the assertion) and not racist to claim that one race are better athletes than another. I have never liked double standards. Staying with the sports example, people claim that minorities (specifically blacks) are under-represented in sports team management. Maybe so, but I can make an equally valid argument that Caucasians are under-represented as players. How do we fix that?:~ Gary Kirkham A working Program is one that has only unobserved bugs I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks
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It's positive discrimination (i.e. giving someone an advantage because they're difference), but this is still discrimination. Imagine the scenario of a job interview with two candidates, a really highly trained candidate, and someone who is totally average. In a normal world, the best person would be given the job, however, if there is "political correctness" at work, then the less able person may be given the job for the simple reason that they belong to some form of minority, and the company is either scared of being accused of discrimination against them, or they have some kind of "we're against discrimination" policy meaning they're forced to hire the substandard person just to make up numbers in their quota to prove what a modern company they are -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
Hey, I just realized that this thread ties into the one below about MS having to include Java now :) Talk about AA... Judge to MS: 'No you screwed Sun for far to long, now you have to included this substandard piece of crap in your OS, take all the support calls when it does not work right, blah, blah, blah...' Who looses? The consumer!
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."