Affirmative action..Why it's wrong?
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Shog9 wrote: shog ponders sending US suicide bombers into the middle east... must be some use for all these depressed teenagers...* errrrr ... 250,000 american troops sent to the middle east? arent we doing that already? not all iraqi people had anything to do with sept 11 (if any) but its ok to go bomb them right? *laughs* double standards are very funny
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about me -
Chris Austin wrote: What realy needs to be achived is equality. So how are you going to measure that? Is measuring "equality" any different than measuring "diversity"? If they both relate to race, then they must both use race as a factor. Unfortunately, in history, the result of ignoring race and gender as selection criteria typically leaves those minorities out of the selection, due to lack of opportunity. It's a cause and effect problem in that the causes that make people unable for the selection are the things that make them unable to perform. The correction has been not to help them to perform, but to bias the selection. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: So how are you going to measure that? Why does this need to be measured? David Chamberlain wrote: due to lack of opportunity I will have to disagree that there is a lack of opportunity. Everyone has the opportunity to go to school here(Anyone can get a student loan and go to a state university). It is simply up to them and their parents to take advantage of the opportunity. Once given the inital opportunity it is now their responsibility to further themselves. If someone can't get it done, it is not a question of race or gender, it is a question of personal ethics and values. David Chamberlain wrote: The correction has been not to help them to perform, but to bias the selection. By applying a bias to selection is it not discrimination or racism? Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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David Chamberlain wrote: So how are you going to measure that? Why does this need to be measured? David Chamberlain wrote: due to lack of opportunity I will have to disagree that there is a lack of opportunity. Everyone has the opportunity to go to school here(Anyone can get a student loan and go to a state university). It is simply up to them and their parents to take advantage of the opportunity. Once given the inital opportunity it is now their responsibility to further themselves. If someone can't get it done, it is not a question of race or gender, it is a question of personal ethics and values. David Chamberlain wrote: The correction has been not to help them to perform, but to bias the selection. By applying a bias to selection is it not discrimination or racism? Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
Chris Austin wrote: Why does this need to be measured? How does anyone know that an institution has achieved the desired level of diversity/equality if there is no quantifiable method of assessing that level? If the University of Michigan publicizes their racial makeup, then would not people be able to assess whether they thought racial diversity had been achieved? Chris Austin wrote: Everyone has the opportunity to go to school here*(Anyone can get a student loan and go to a state university). *Not sure where "here" is. Unfortunately, that isn't true, and this is how Affirmative Action got started. It was because not everyone could qualify for entrance, or was able to pay their way, that the opportunity was denied. It also was that a set of people were rejected simply because of their race. Chris Austin wrote: ... it is a question of personal ethics and values. Certainly we would like people to be measured by their performance, and certainly not all performance is equal. Some will do better than others, and natural selection says those that don't cut it get cut. Again, unfortunately, when under-achievers place the blame on the effects of discrimination rather than on their own performance, the problems are worsened. This is caused by the lack of personal ethics and values. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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Just out of curiousity, how do you plan to determine that adjustment factor? I don't think it is as simple as -n + n == 0, and even if it is, how do you determine 'n'? I don't quite see how anyone is planning to make this 'equal', so to speak. And what if you mess up and end up with: -2n + n. Since that doesn't equal 0, are we going to then strip out affirmative action and try slavery again to see if we can get back to the 0 point? And who will be the ultimate judge of the amount of injustice done based upon discrimination? A government, a single person, the UN? Matthew chapter 7, verse 1 states: "Judge not, that you may not be judged." Sincerely, Alexander Wiseman Est melior esse quam videri It is better to be than to seem
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Chris Austin wrote: Why does this need to be measured? How does anyone know that an institution has achieved the desired level of diversity/equality if there is no quantifiable method of assessing that level? If the University of Michigan publicizes their racial makeup, then would not people be able to assess whether they thought racial diversity had been achieved? Chris Austin wrote: Everyone has the opportunity to go to school here*(Anyone can get a student loan and go to a state university). *Not sure where "here" is. Unfortunately, that isn't true, and this is how Affirmative Action got started. It was because not everyone could qualify for entrance, or was able to pay their way, that the opportunity was denied. It also was that a set of people were rejected simply because of their race. Chris Austin wrote: ... it is a question of personal ethics and values. Certainly we would like people to be measured by their performance, and certainly not all performance is equal. Some will do better than others, and natural selection says those that don't cut it get cut. Again, unfortunately, when under-achievers place the blame on the effects of discrimination rather than on their own performance, the problems are worsened. This is caused by the lack of personal ethics and values. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: How does anyone know that an institution has achieved the desired level of diversity/equality if there is no quantifiable method of assessing that level? Whats wrong with just setting a requirment and not allowing those who fail to meet the requirements in? Wouldn't this remove all questions of race? If you have a bumper crop of qualified applicants for a given position / session you should be able to temporaly raise the line. If all applicants are judged equaly what needs to be measured? If a person feels slighted because of race arent they entitled to file a grivence? David Chamberlain wrote: *Not sure where "here" is. Here is the US. I grew up in a *very* poor area of West Phoenix were I'd wager the average household income was well below the poverty line and most of the residents were minorty. David Chamberlain wrote: Unfortunately, that isn't true, and this is how Affirmative Action got started I agree that it wasn't always fair. But now if you make the grades in Highschool you can get into a state collage. It is not as if the requirements are hidden or anyone prevents you from studing for or taking the entrance exams. Student loans are given to almost anyone who fills out the application. And, Grants are available to many who come from very poor background. Not to mention there a lots of scholarships available to people willing to work for them. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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lauren wrote: if the people who have been discriminating have to tase their own medicine they may be less willing to dole it out in the future Hmm... what an interesting thought... I wonder where else this "Do unto others what you'd really like them not to do to you" tactic would work out... *shog ponders sending US suicide bombers into the middle east... must be some use for all these depressed teenagers...*
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
:laugh: J
May the bear never have cause to eat you.
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lauren wrote: no-white non-male non-hetrosexual You're not claiming ALL of these, are you ? :P lauren wrote: do i hear bitching and moaning? Hell, yes. Like trade unionism, sexism has gone the other way. Women are SO better off in our society than men. Just try and deny it. Employers, especially government ones, have quotas they need to meet to *prove* they are equal opportunity. You can get hired just because you're a girl, but not vice versa. Bajillions of dollars are thrown at breast cancer research every year, the prostate just goes it's merry way. There are government offices of womens health, womens rights. There is no office of men, if I suggested there be such a thing, the streets would be lined with angry women. Yes, women were treated badly in the past, by some societies as little more than property. But now the power is in the womens hands, and they also do not use it in equality. Everyone is out for themself, and our society is bigoted against one person only. Me. A white, heterosexual male. Put those three things together, and the assumption is that you've got no problems, you're on your own and your taxes will be taken and given to the 'minorities', who live better than me, have more resources than me, and in every way are treated with favouritism by our society. The big problem, which is exploited by these groups, is that if it's women who are asking, the answer must be yes, because we fear being called sexist. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Ray Cassick wrote: Do you think that a person that knows they make it into a job simply because they filled a quota honestly feels any better? yup if it means s/he can feed their family and do a job they are capable of doing
"traffic lights are for people who can't make their own decisions"
biz stuff about melauren wrote: yup if it means s/he can feed their family and do a job they are capable of doing Gee - the women I know have more self respect. When I went for this job, I did not let the friends who worked here put in a good word for me, because I prefer to go through life on my merits, not favours from friends. I'd feel worse if I got here because of what I had between my legs. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
David Chamberlain wrote: How does anyone know that an institution has achieved the desired level of diversity/equality if there is no quantifiable method of assessing that level? Whats wrong with just setting a requirment and not allowing those who fail to meet the requirements in? Wouldn't this remove all questions of race? If you have a bumper crop of qualified applicants for a given position / session you should be able to temporaly raise the line. If all applicants are judged equaly what needs to be measured? If a person feels slighted because of race arent they entitled to file a grivence? David Chamberlain wrote: *Not sure where "here" is. Here is the US. I grew up in a *very* poor area of West Phoenix were I'd wager the average household income was well below the poverty line and most of the residents were minorty. David Chamberlain wrote: Unfortunately, that isn't true, and this is how Affirmative Action got started I agree that it wasn't always fair. But now if you make the grades in Highschool you can get into a state collage. It is not as if the requirements are hidden or anyone prevents you from studing for or taking the entrance exams. Student loans are given to almost anyone who fills out the application. And, Grants are available to many who come from very poor background. Not to mention there a lots of scholarships available to people willing to work for them. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
Chris Austin wrote: Whats wrong with just setting a requirment and not allowing those who fail to meet the requirements in? Left-wing liberal socialist response: "Because that's not fair." Certainly to have everything evaluated on performance is an ideal. No color, no country-of-origin, no height, no weight, no religion, no gender, etc, etc. If this were so, then those that could not qualify would have to complain for some reason other than their own lack of ability. "If I can't have it, then neither should you" becomes the rallying cry of the under-achievers. "If ability can't let me in, then the system must be flawed and it must be because you are discriminating against me!!!" Unsaid and unthought: "It isn't because I am unqualified." Chris Austin wrote: ... arent they entitled to file a grivence? Yes, and now it's wrapped in what is called "discrimination." Chris Austin wrote: lots of scholarships available to people willing to work for them. That is not a way to get something for nothing. Remember, in the world of under-achievment, getting something for nothing with little effort being expended is the goal. Having to work for it? You've got to be kidding. What you are saying is true, there are resources available for those willing to find them. There are opportunities available for those willing to seek them, and there are rewards for those who work hard, pursue their goals, and achieve results. The problem is that there is a growing segment of the U.S. population that either hasn't been educated to know this, or isn't willing to live it. Almost everything we have been talking about is because of that segment, not the segment that does achieve. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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Sheesh... I hope you don't apply logic like this when you program. No one has to admit to being racist (or a thief, or muderer, or...) to be caught and punished. William E. Kempf
LOL - the best thing about arguing with people on a programming board is the 'I hope you don't program like this' card. Not taking sides here, I just think it's funny. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
lauren wrote: dont want to start a flame war or nothing Uh. Don't look up the page... :) I'm of the opinion that AA is discriminatory against one set of people, and the status quo is discriminatory against another set. That gives me the feeling that both options are simply applying small bandages on a gaping spurting wound. If we all lived in Jamie-land, rather than trying to bandage the wound, I'd prefer we all try to find the cause and deal with that. I know it sounds all "Heidi of the Swiss Alps" but on first glance, I'd say that if we could eliminate the hatred and distrust of all those "who are not me" we could probably stop a lot of the bleeding. Just a thought. J
May the bear never have cause to eat you.
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I was not stating any issue with your comment. Just the reality of what the current US laws do impose. Take Care. "I will find a new sig someday."
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So are you saying that doing wrong to one group of people for the bennifit of another group is OK? You don't think this will have dire ramifications in the long run? To me it is just racism pure and simple. The ends can never justify the means. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
Well, I'm not racist, I have friends who are black, or jamacan. but their friends say "the white man is bringing me down" let's do something. then they go against me. And to be honest, everyone comes to me when they need help with something. i'm too nice sometimes and i always help out. and seriously i've never done anything against anyone. my great-great grandparents helped get slaves out of the south. and my grandfather died saving the life of a black kid during a race riot. so my point is: why should my family be treated like racists or miss opportunities because someone else believes we shouldn't get them and they should go to some black guy at a college instead. we have done absolutely noothing wrong. so that's racial profiling against me. termed affimative action
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lauren wrote: do i hear bitching and moaning? get over it now Come on Lauren. You are moaning about us moaning about AA. Of all people I think you would be the last to want help and special preferences to get ahead in life.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa