Is There One Intelligence and Can it be Measured?
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My parents never found my wit and sarcasm very impressive. Though, they didn't seem to appreciate intelligence at all. They always said "smart ass" like it was a bad thing. :rolleyes:
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Clifford Nelson wrote:
WASP
What is WASP?
Clifford Nelson wrote:
those that can solve complex equations in their heads
I can do that. 1 + 1i + 2 + 2i = 3 + 3i Did that all in my head. ;P
If you are trying to be humorous, then you missed the boat. If you are serious, then Clifford has it right. WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant). That has been a complaint for many years - it didn't consider different cultural groups. If you studied the dictionary, you would (or should) score very high on vocabulary, whereas an immigrant who spoke
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If you are trying to be humorous, then you missed the boat. If you are serious, then Clifford has it right. WASP (White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant). That has been a complaint for many years - it didn't consider different cultural groups. If you studied the dictionary, you would (or should) score very high on vocabulary, whereas an immigrant who spoke
My question about what "WASP" stands for was not a joke.
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From what I remember it was more of a frame of reference issue, nor definitions of words and such. People with very different cultures have a different way of looking at things. It was a long time ago that I saw the study.
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I do not believe that it was intentionally biased. I believe the people who created the test are trying to do the best job they can. Newton did not intend to misled us with his science but he was wrong. I am also not saying that there is not value in IQ tests, any more than there is not value in Newtonian physics. Still there is a framework which the developers worked in. If you do not believe this, just look into IQ on wikipedia. There is some discussion on this problem. You also have to know that when I heard this it was many years ago, and people developing these tests are trying to eliminate bias. Part of the way they eliminate it is by adjusting scores in different regions. Social Science is far from a percise science, and expecting it to be so is foolish. This is why it is important to provide a reason for down voting.
I accept that you believe the designers were not intentionally biasing their tests. However, you did not so qualify your assertion in your original post, and your wording there implied that it was intentional. Hence my down vote (for which I did provide my reasons.) If I could change my vote, I would ease it up to at least a three, or remove it altogether.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Check out the Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient[^]
I'd love to read those studies, but apparently they aren't available for free to the public (at least not from the links on that Wiki article), and I've not enough interest to pay. So I'm stuck having to blindly accept their conclusions.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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I accept that you believe the designers were not intentionally biasing their tests. However, you did not so qualify your assertion in your original post, and your wording there implied that it was intentional. Hence my down vote (for which I did provide my reasons.) If I could change my vote, I would ease it up to at least a three, or remove it altogether.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
As you probably know, unintentional omission is a big problem. In developing software, ususally the biggest cost is due to omitted requirements because nobody thought of them. In design it is these lapses that cause the problems like the Japanese Nuclear plant where the tsunami took out the generators.
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I'd like to read that study, or anything that could explain how one's culture, race, etc., could affect one's ability to work out logical sequences of patterns in an IQ test.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
Just go to wikipedia and read about IQ: Test biasSee also: Stereotype threat The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance, such as school achievement, similarly to the way they predict future performance for Whites.[39] However, IQ tests may well be biased when used in other situations. A 2005 study stated that "differential validity in prediction suggests that the WAIS-R test may contain cultural influences that reduce the validity of the WAIS-R as a measure of cognitive ability for Mexican American students,"[100] indicating a weaker positive correlation relative to sampled white students. Other recent studies have questioned the culture-fairness of IQ tests when used in South Africa.[101][102] Standard intelligence tests, such as the Stanford-Binet, are often inappropriate for children with autism; the alternative of using developmental or adaptive skills measures are relatively poor measures of intelligence in autistic children, and may have resulted in incorrect claims that a majority of children with autism are mentally retarded.[103]
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Just go to wikipedia and read about IQ: Test biasSee also: Stereotype threat The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance, such as school achievement, similarly to the way they predict future performance for Whites.[39] However, IQ tests may well be biased when used in other situations. A 2005 study stated that "differential validity in prediction suggests that the WAIS-R test may contain cultural influences that reduce the validity of the WAIS-R as a measure of cognitive ability for Mexican American students,"[100] indicating a weaker positive correlation relative to sampled white students. Other recent studies have questioned the culture-fairness of IQ tests when used in South Africa.[101][102] Standard intelligence tests, such as the Stanford-Binet, are often inappropriate for children with autism; the alternative of using developmental or adaptive skills measures are relatively poor measures of intelligence in autistic children, and may have resulted in incorrect claims that a majority of children with autism are mentally retarded.[103]
Thanks, I did read that exact section. It merely restates the conclusions of three studies. The references are links to the published studies, but the only parts that are freely available are the summaries. To see the actual data from the studies so that you can validate their conclusions for yourself, you have to pay for them. I am unwilling to fork over good money for something I am only mildly interested in, so I am forced to blindly accept their conclusions that WAIS-R is culturally biased. Interestingly enough, even they qualify their conclusion by saying the study "suggests" a bias. Now there's a weasel word! ;)
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Thanks, I did read that exact section. It merely restates the conclusions of three studies. The references are links to the published studies, but the only parts that are freely available are the summaries. To see the actual data from the studies so that you can validate their conclusions for yourself, you have to pay for them. I am unwilling to fork over good money for something I am only mildly interested in, so I am forced to blindly accept their conclusions that WAIS-R is culturally biased. Interestingly enough, even they qualify their conclusion by saying the study "suggests" a bias. Now there's a weasel word! ;)
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
You never dealt with HFE people. I have. They almost always seem to qualify their statements because nothing in this field is absolute. You could also try to find proof that iq tests actually measure true intellegence, and would find that there would be weasel words for that also, at least from a reputable scientist. Eistein stated "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." and this is in the hard sciences, not the soft. You may want to read the studies, I will live with the conclusions. They are probably more pages than you would want to deal with and you would have to be a hell of a lot smarter than me probably to truely understand it (not my field, and probably expect a lot of knowledge I do not have).
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As you probably know, unintentional omission is a big problem. In developing software, ususally the biggest cost is due to omitted requirements because nobody thought of them. In design it is these lapses that cause the problems like the Japanese Nuclear plant where the tsunami took out the generators.
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My question about what "WASP" stands for was not a joke.
WASP biased example I took one of them there IQ tests. One section had pictures: a plane is to a car, like a train is to a ? type of question. The picture of the plane was an old DC3 tail dragger. If you hadn't ever been on a plane, or seen anything other than a jet, the test was biased against you. As an old fart, I flew in one in Florida. Have to walk up-hill to get to your seat. :wtf:
Gary
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Love the bigotry that is shown by voters. Are my comments so obnoxious for votes of 1, Three people hate my comments, but do not seem to provide any substantiation. Would have thought better of people in this forum.
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TNCaver wrote:
What possible advantage could one's culture, race, religion or ancestral background give to typical IQ questions such as this[^]?
Well, if you didn't speak English in your culture, you'd be pretty much screwed, wouldn't you?
If Bob sold 15 apples in a working week, what is the average number of apples he sells each day?
If your culture calls for a 6 or 7 day work week, your answer would be different than mine. Not all cultures have 5-day work weeks.
If you have a cube which is 5m x 5m x 5m, what is the cubic metres this container would hold?
I guess in your upbringing you'd have to know the abbreviation for metre is m, wouldn't you. I know a few races that don't know that fact. And what the F is a metre, anyhow? We have meters over here. That alone could affect your answer.
“Boat is to sea” therefore “Plane is to _____” Air – Boats travel through the sea, therefore what do planes travel through? The Air.
I'd have to call this answer WRONG. Boats travel through the WATER, which includes seas, oceans, rivers, lakes, ponds. You see a boat on the sea. You see a plane in the sky (not in the air). Bad question.
The acronym RSVP originally came from the French term Répondez s’il vous plaît – True or False?
Quite a few cultures around here wouldn't ever have heard RSVP in the first place.
Gary
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In the studies I have seen, the tests WERE biased towards WASP. Those studies that I read were 20-25 years ago, and no, I can't point you to an InterLink with proof. I down-voted because of your silly down-vote.
Gary
It appears that they are still attempting to unbias the tests, although recent information indicates that blacks are no longer biased against, there are questions about latino bias. It will get better. So you down voted me because of my other forum message. Thats rather small minded of you. I put that up because of one votes I saw on posts that were not my own. So many people are so small minded. Of course I can be very small minded myself at times.
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TNCaver wrote:
What possible advantage could one's culture, race, religion or ancestral background give to typical IQ questions such as this[^]?
Well, if you didn't speak English in your culture, you'd be pretty much screwed, wouldn't you?
If Bob sold 15 apples in a working week, what is the average number of apples he sells each day?
If your culture calls for a 6 or 7 day work week, your answer would be different than mine. Not all cultures have 5-day work weeks.
If you have a cube which is 5m x 5m x 5m, what is the cubic metres this container would hold?
I guess in your upbringing you'd have to know the abbreviation for metre is m, wouldn't you. I know a few races that don't know that fact. And what the F is a metre, anyhow? We have meters over here. That alone could affect your answer.
“Boat is to sea” therefore “Plane is to _____” Air – Boats travel through the sea, therefore what do planes travel through? The Air.
I'd have to call this answer WRONG. Boats travel through the WATER, which includes seas, oceans, rivers, lakes, ponds. You see a boat on the sea. You see a plane in the sky (not in the air). Bad question.
The acronym RSVP originally came from the French term Répondez s’il vous plaît – True or False?
Quite a few cultures around here wouldn't ever have heard RSVP in the first place.
Gary
So are these questions from actual tests?
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So are these questions from actual tests?
Well, yes, and Internet sample link given by TNCaver (see first embedded quote with link). I think his point was the questions can't be biased, yet a lot of them are. They see simple to us intelligent folks, but wouldn't be so simple if you were of other mentality, I would think.
Gary
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It appears that they are still attempting to unbias the tests, although recent information indicates that blacks are no longer biased against, there are questions about latino bias. It will get better. So you down voted me because of my other forum message. Thats rather small minded of you. I put that up because of one votes I saw on posts that were not my own. So many people are so small minded. Of course I can be very small minded myself at times.
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I down-voted it because you stated this as fact: "The problem with the IQ test in the past has been that it was designed to be somewhat accurate for WASP", an assertion that seems just as bigoted as what you perceive in the down-voting of that post. I provided substantiation in the example question I posted as a rebuttal.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
TNCaver wrote:
an assertion that seems just as bigoted as what you perceive in the down-voting of that post
This was not an assertion nor a perception. At least I don't believe so, because (unbiased) studies have been done that proved that very point. You down-voted because of your lack of facts, it appears. Not a good reason.
Gary