Is There One Intelligence and Can it be Measured?
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I accept that you believe the designers were not intentionally biasing their tests. However, you did not so qualify your assertion in your original post, and your wording there implied that it was intentional. Hence my down vote (for which I did provide my reasons.) If I could change my vote, I would ease it up to at least a three, or remove it altogether.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
As you probably know, unintentional omission is a big problem. In developing software, ususally the biggest cost is due to omitted requirements because nobody thought of them. In design it is these lapses that cause the problems like the Japanese Nuclear plant where the tsunami took out the generators.
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I'd like to read that study, or anything that could explain how one's culture, race, etc., could affect one's ability to work out logical sequences of patterns in an IQ test.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
Just go to wikipedia and read about IQ: Test biasSee also: Stereotype threat The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance, such as school achievement, similarly to the way they predict future performance for Whites.[39] However, IQ tests may well be biased when used in other situations. A 2005 study stated that "differential validity in prediction suggests that the WAIS-R test may contain cultural influences that reduce the validity of the WAIS-R as a measure of cognitive ability for Mexican American students,"[100] indicating a weaker positive correlation relative to sampled white students. Other recent studies have questioned the culture-fairness of IQ tests when used in South Africa.[101][102] Standard intelligence tests, such as the Stanford-Binet, are often inappropriate for children with autism; the alternative of using developmental or adaptive skills measures are relatively poor measures of intelligence in autistic children, and may have resulted in incorrect claims that a majority of children with autism are mentally retarded.[103]
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Just go to wikipedia and read about IQ: Test biasSee also: Stereotype threat The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance, such as school achievement, similarly to the way they predict future performance for Whites.[39] However, IQ tests may well be biased when used in other situations. A 2005 study stated that "differential validity in prediction suggests that the WAIS-R test may contain cultural influences that reduce the validity of the WAIS-R as a measure of cognitive ability for Mexican American students,"[100] indicating a weaker positive correlation relative to sampled white students. Other recent studies have questioned the culture-fairness of IQ tests when used in South Africa.[101][102] Standard intelligence tests, such as the Stanford-Binet, are often inappropriate for children with autism; the alternative of using developmental or adaptive skills measures are relatively poor measures of intelligence in autistic children, and may have resulted in incorrect claims that a majority of children with autism are mentally retarded.[103]
Thanks, I did read that exact section. It merely restates the conclusions of three studies. The references are links to the published studies, but the only parts that are freely available are the summaries. To see the actual data from the studies so that you can validate their conclusions for yourself, you have to pay for them. I am unwilling to fork over good money for something I am only mildly interested in, so I am forced to blindly accept their conclusions that WAIS-R is culturally biased. Interestingly enough, even they qualify their conclusion by saying the study "suggests" a bias. Now there's a weasel word! ;)
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Thanks, I did read that exact section. It merely restates the conclusions of three studies. The references are links to the published studies, but the only parts that are freely available are the summaries. To see the actual data from the studies so that you can validate their conclusions for yourself, you have to pay for them. I am unwilling to fork over good money for something I am only mildly interested in, so I am forced to blindly accept their conclusions that WAIS-R is culturally biased. Interestingly enough, even they qualify their conclusion by saying the study "suggests" a bias. Now there's a weasel word! ;)
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
You never dealt with HFE people. I have. They almost always seem to qualify their statements because nothing in this field is absolute. You could also try to find proof that iq tests actually measure true intellegence, and would find that there would be weasel words for that also, at least from a reputable scientist. Eistein stated "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." and this is in the hard sciences, not the soft. You may want to read the studies, I will live with the conclusions. They are probably more pages than you would want to deal with and you would have to be a hell of a lot smarter than me probably to truely understand it (not my field, and probably expect a lot of knowledge I do not have).
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As you probably know, unintentional omission is a big problem. In developing software, ususally the biggest cost is due to omitted requirements because nobody thought of them. In design it is these lapses that cause the problems like the Japanese Nuclear plant where the tsunami took out the generators.
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My question about what "WASP" stands for was not a joke.
WASP biased example I took one of them there IQ tests. One section had pictures: a plane is to a car, like a train is to a ? type of question. The picture of the plane was an old DC3 tail dragger. If you hadn't ever been on a plane, or seen anything other than a jet, the test was biased against you. As an old fart, I flew in one in Florida. Have to walk up-hill to get to your seat. :wtf:
Gary
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Love the bigotry that is shown by voters. Are my comments so obnoxious for votes of 1, Three people hate my comments, but do not seem to provide any substantiation. Would have thought better of people in this forum.
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TNCaver wrote:
What possible advantage could one's culture, race, religion or ancestral background give to typical IQ questions such as this[^]?
Well, if you didn't speak English in your culture, you'd be pretty much screwed, wouldn't you?
If Bob sold 15 apples in a working week, what is the average number of apples he sells each day?
If your culture calls for a 6 or 7 day work week, your answer would be different than mine. Not all cultures have 5-day work weeks.
If you have a cube which is 5m x 5m x 5m, what is the cubic metres this container would hold?
I guess in your upbringing you'd have to know the abbreviation for metre is m, wouldn't you. I know a few races that don't know that fact. And what the F is a metre, anyhow? We have meters over here. That alone could affect your answer.
“Boat is to sea” therefore “Plane is to _____” Air – Boats travel through the sea, therefore what do planes travel through? The Air.
I'd have to call this answer WRONG. Boats travel through the WATER, which includes seas, oceans, rivers, lakes, ponds. You see a boat on the sea. You see a plane in the sky (not in the air). Bad question.
The acronym RSVP originally came from the French term Répondez s’il vous plaît – True or False?
Quite a few cultures around here wouldn't ever have heard RSVP in the first place.
Gary
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In the studies I have seen, the tests WERE biased towards WASP. Those studies that I read were 20-25 years ago, and no, I can't point you to an InterLink with proof. I down-voted because of your silly down-vote.
Gary
It appears that they are still attempting to unbias the tests, although recent information indicates that blacks are no longer biased against, there are questions about latino bias. It will get better. So you down voted me because of my other forum message. Thats rather small minded of you. I put that up because of one votes I saw on posts that were not my own. So many people are so small minded. Of course I can be very small minded myself at times.
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TNCaver wrote:
What possible advantage could one's culture, race, religion or ancestral background give to typical IQ questions such as this[^]?
Well, if you didn't speak English in your culture, you'd be pretty much screwed, wouldn't you?
If Bob sold 15 apples in a working week, what is the average number of apples he sells each day?
If your culture calls for a 6 or 7 day work week, your answer would be different than mine. Not all cultures have 5-day work weeks.
If you have a cube which is 5m x 5m x 5m, what is the cubic metres this container would hold?
I guess in your upbringing you'd have to know the abbreviation for metre is m, wouldn't you. I know a few races that don't know that fact. And what the F is a metre, anyhow? We have meters over here. That alone could affect your answer.
“Boat is to sea” therefore “Plane is to _____” Air – Boats travel through the sea, therefore what do planes travel through? The Air.
I'd have to call this answer WRONG. Boats travel through the WATER, which includes seas, oceans, rivers, lakes, ponds. You see a boat on the sea. You see a plane in the sky (not in the air). Bad question.
The acronym RSVP originally came from the French term Répondez s’il vous plaît – True or False?
Quite a few cultures around here wouldn't ever have heard RSVP in the first place.
Gary
So are these questions from actual tests?
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So are these questions from actual tests?
Well, yes, and Internet sample link given by TNCaver (see first embedded quote with link). I think his point was the questions can't be biased, yet a lot of them are. They see simple to us intelligent folks, but wouldn't be so simple if you were of other mentality, I would think.
Gary
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It appears that they are still attempting to unbias the tests, although recent information indicates that blacks are no longer biased against, there are questions about latino bias. It will get better. So you down voted me because of my other forum message. Thats rather small minded of you. I put that up because of one votes I saw on posts that were not my own. So many people are so small minded. Of course I can be very small minded myself at times.
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I down-voted it because you stated this as fact: "The problem with the IQ test in the past has been that it was designed to be somewhat accurate for WASP", an assertion that seems just as bigoted as what you perceive in the down-voting of that post. I provided substantiation in the example question I posted as a rebuttal.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
TNCaver wrote:
an assertion that seems just as bigoted as what you perceive in the down-voting of that post
This was not an assertion nor a perception. At least I don't believe so, because (unbiased) studies have been done that proved that very point. You down-voted because of your lack of facts, it appears. Not a good reason.
Gary
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Well, yes, and Internet sample link given by TNCaver (see first embedded quote with link). I think his point was the questions can't be biased, yet a lot of them are. They see simple to us intelligent folks, but wouldn't be so simple if you were of other mentality, I would think.
Gary
If you ever read about some of the greatest minds you discover that they were socially inept. They apparently had a hard time dealing with normal people, instead of being able to use thier great intellegence to adapt. Then again, these people were able to see things differently, which gave them insight that normal mortals missed, and it may have been this was the price they paid for being able to see what others missed.
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There seem to be a lot of different ideas of what intelligence is. Some define intelligence with respect to ability, others with respect to potential. Some include knowledge as a major component, while others define it as ability to tackle new problems. Many insist speed is a of paramount importance, yet others champion depth of thought. It might be said that one's capacity to remember in the short term is a clear indicator, but it might be argued that is just a common trait among the intelligent and is neither necessary for it nor ensures it. Even more difficult than defining it is measuring it. Must there be a time limit? Should the test taker be given a dictionary or other reference material? Should complicated terms be avoided? And what of complicated mathematical concepts (e.g., what if the test taker has never heard of "prime number"?)? Maybe specific domains (science, math, language, philosophy, and so on) are the only thing which can be accurately measured. Or maybe greater intelligence can't be achieved without knowledge of many domains. In my estimation, intelligence can't easily be measured. If one is to measure how a person can solve problems novel to them, you must first measure their knowledge of the domain. If they have inadequate knowledge of the domain, an advanced problem within that domain would probably be beyond them if they don't know enough to interpret the problem correctly. And if they are so familiar with a domain that they already are familiar with problem solving strategies for most problems in that domain, any problem given to them will not require novel solutions. I think the best that can be readily done is to measure how much ability a person has achieved of their potential. You can test them in the areas they are familiar with to see how far they've come in their life so far. The more abstract the problems, the more generally applicable they can be. What do you think? Is there such a thing as a single type of intelligence (rather than, say, mathematical intelligence), and is it possible to measure? Have you come across an IQ test which you think accurately measures intelligence?
"Intelligence" is an abstract concept, which covers association, rationalisation, and speed of processing. Looking for a way to measure an abstraction of such disparate parts is not something an intelligent person would waste his time on -- it's like creating a judgmental value of a car using an abstraction that includes only the tyre pressure, the colours of the numbers on the fuel gauge, and the stereo.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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"Intelligence" is an abstract concept, which covers association, rationalisation, and speed of processing. Looking for a way to measure an abstraction of such disparate parts is not something an intelligent person would waste his time on -- it's like creating a judgmental value of a car using an abstraction that includes only the tyre pressure, the colours of the numbers on the fuel gauge, and the stereo.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Looking for a way to measure an abstraction of such disparate parts is not something an intelligent person would waste his time on
Stating what an intelligent person would or would not do is not what an intelligent person... wait, damn! Let's just say intelligence does not mutually exclude stupidity. :rolleyes:
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Mark Wallace wrote:
Looking for a way to measure an abstraction of such disparate parts is not something an intelligent person would waste his time on
Stating what an intelligent person would or would not do is not what an intelligent person... wait, damn! Let's just say intelligence does not mutually exclude stupidity. :rolleyes:
AspDotNetDev wrote:
Stating what an intelligent person would or would not do is not what an intelligent person...
We could be here all day.
An intelligent person wouldn't feel the need to point that out.
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Love the bigotry that is shown by voters. Are my comments so obnoxious for votes of 1, Three people hate my comments, but do not seem to provide any substantiation. Would have thought better of people in this forum.
Gee Got another negative vote, and did not leave a comment. Hypocrites
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Love the bigotry that is shown by voters. Are my comments so obnoxious for votes of 1, Three people hate my comments, but do not seem to provide any substantiation. Would have thought better of people in this forum.
Gee and got another negative vote, and did not leave a comment.