A poll
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wizardzz wrote:
U.S. 2 party system doesn't like that
True. I'd favor some form of a multiparty system akin to Germany's.
wizardzz wrote:
Everyone would realize how Libertarian they are.
Probably true. I find myself liking Ron Paul a lot these days (although not his apparent past racist writings).
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunHe doesn't actually have any past racist writings. The media can't find any real dirt on him, so they had to resort to bringing up mildly racist writings written by somebody else who worked with him. I think it crosses the line to be hunting for minor offenses by anybody he's ever been associated with in order to bring up dirt.
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Fixed your title.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
Certainly, if only because the words "liberal" and "conservative" have very different, almost opposite, meanings in most of the world outside the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Interestingly, the meaning of liberal/conservative in the US is opposite the meaning of those words in most of the world outside the US
How so?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
It's too much to repeat here. Wikipedia has some good information on liberalism and conservatism.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Some of the questions I don't really have an answer to because I don't understand them, not being from the US. In almost every other case I either disagreed with both, generally being somewhere in the middle, or I agreed with both. I am not happy with almost every answer I gave, however;
Social Issues: 50% Conservative, 50% Liberal
Personal Responsibility: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal
Fiscal Issues: 25% Conservative, 75% Liberal
Ethics: 0% Conservative, 100% Liberal
Defense and Crime: 0% Conservative, 100% LiberalWhich I don't think would surprise you given what we have disagreed on in the past. Although I've found myself upvoting a lot of you posts recently, which has caused me to have a strong word with myself :-D
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
not being from the US
Yeah, it's a poll meant more for US residents. The meaning of liberal and conservative here in the US is very different than most of the rest of the world.
ChrisElston wrote:
In almost every other case I either disagreed with both, generally being somewhere in the middle, or I agreed with both. I am not happy with almost every answer I gave, however;
Yeah, I had the same experience. I didn't really like all the choices given.
ChrisElston wrote:
I've found myself upvoting a lot of you posts recently
LOL. Thanks! Well I try to be reasonable, openminded and fair.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ChrisElston wrote:
not being from the US
Yeah, it's a poll meant more for US residents. The meaning of liberal and conservative here in the US is very different than most of the rest of the world.
ChrisElston wrote:
In almost every other case I either disagreed with both, generally being somewhere in the middle, or I agreed with both. I am not happy with almost every answer I gave, however;
Yeah, I had the same experience. I didn't really like all the choices given.
ChrisElston wrote:
I've found myself upvoting a lot of you posts recently
LOL. Thanks! Well I try to be reasonable, openminded and fair.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
That poll kind of sucks. Then again, most polls do. For example: 2. I don't like either choice. Plenty of immigrants have an education and get a proper job, no problems there (especially not when they're from an other "western" country, I don't get why we're trying to restrict USian immigrants for example). Then again, there are also plenty of immigrants that moved here just to be a criminal (gypsies, I'm looking at you), but the lefties want to cuddle them, too. So I would want to answer "neither, it should be different, with strictness only applied where it makes sense". 4. What? 5. I see there is no "frakkin' death penalty" answer, not that I would choose it. But I imagine some would. 8. WTF? 14. Well... everyone? You can easily take that way too far, like we did in Europe. Answering False makes you a social Darwinist, which carries negative connotations but ultimately it's just a matter of what "fair" means to you (or whether you care about it). An answer "situation dependent" would make sense here. 15. What kind of naive kid would answer False here? This is a lesson you learn when you're, I don't know, 4 or so. 20. Bullshit question. Human "rights" are given to you by your country, they can take them away. Morally perhaps that is not so, depending on who you listen to, but in practice it is.
Yeah, the poll sucked for lots of reasons. Aside from being a US-centric poll, the questions could have been worded better and more than a binary/this-that answer could have been given as well.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
It's too much to repeat here. Wikipedia has some good information on liberalism and conservatism.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunI know what the definitions and differences are. There are clear definitions to their fundamentals. I am asking why you are saying US is using the opposite definition of the rest of the world.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Certainly, if only because the words "liberal" and "conservative" have very different, almost opposite, meanings in most of the world outside the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunQ# 19 is: "The problem with the US justice system is: blah / shit", and that doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm conservative or liberal. It was obviously for a poll for people in the USA, and that's what I pointed out.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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Q# 19 is: "The problem with the US justice system is: blah / shit", and that doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm conservative or liberal. It was obviously for a poll for people in the USA, and that's what I pointed out.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
That too.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
I often disagree with (some of) what you put, but agree with how or why you put your point across.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
That's what I figured or was hoping was the case.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
loctrice wrote:
I'm not sure how to take that
My reading is that you'd fit right in with the US Democrat party, certainly more liberal than conservative. (Interestingly, the meaning of liberal/conservative in the US is opposite the meaning of those words in most of the world outside the US.) But it's clear there are "nuances" in your political stance. Like I said, some variation.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braunahmed zahmed wrote:
the meaning of liberal/conservative in the US is opposite the meaning of those words in most of the world outside the US
I wouldn't say that actually, but here in the Netherlands (to take an example) there is no liberal/conservative divide. Rather, there is a liberal/socialist divide, and conservatism barely exists in its raw form at all (only some religious fundies wishing to live a couple of centuries ago). There are liberal conservatives, even. If their meanings were truly opposite outside the US, none of that would be the way it is.
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I know what the definitions and differences are. There are clear definitions to their fundamentals. I am asking why you are saying US is using the opposite definition of the rest of the world.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Because in the US, or more properly North America, Liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism, whereas in most of the rest of the (Western) world it refers to what we here in the US would call libertarianism. Additionally, the meaning of "conservatism" in the US has little in common with the way the word is used elsewhere. "What Americans now call conservatism much of the world calls liberalism or neoliberalism." [Leo P. Ribuffo, "20 Suggestions for Studying the Right now that Studying the Right is Trendy," Historically Speaking Jan 2011 v.12#1 pp 2–6, quote on p. 6] So, as you can see, the rest of the world sees these words very differently, even of opposite definitions. I'm not saying there's isn't some overlap, or that it's wrong or "bad". It's just a curiosity and something of which to be aware when conversing with people from Europe. In talking with my wife (who is from Germany), she indicates that the "Liberal Party" in Germany has much more in common with conservatives here in the US and the "Conservatives" in Germany would be called "Liberals" here. Just a case in point. She's lived here for 20+ years so is very familiar with both political systems. The other interesting thing to note is that there's actually a lot of overlap (in my view) between liberals and conservatives and it has to do with the word liberty. Both groups want it for themselves and others.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
ahmed zahmed wrote:
the meaning of liberal/conservative in the US is opposite the meaning of those words in most of the world outside the US
I wouldn't say that actually, but here in the Netherlands (to take an example) there is no liberal/conservative divide. Rather, there is a liberal/socialist divide, and conservatism barely exists in its raw form at all (only some religious fundies wishing to live a couple of centuries ago). There are liberal conservatives, even. If their meanings were truly opposite outside the US, none of that would be the way it is.
You're only making my case. See my response here[^]
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
You're only making my case. See my response here[^]
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Because in the US, or more properly North America, Liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism, whereas in most of the rest of the (Western) world it refers to what we here in the US would call libertarianism. Additionally, the meaning of "conservatism" in the US has little in common with the way the word is used elsewhere. "What Americans now call conservatism much of the world calls liberalism or neoliberalism." [Leo P. Ribuffo, "20 Suggestions for Studying the Right now that Studying the Right is Trendy," Historically Speaking Jan 2011 v.12#1 pp 2–6, quote on p. 6] So, as you can see, the rest of the world sees these words very differently, even of opposite definitions. I'm not saying there's isn't some overlap, or that it's wrong or "bad". It's just a curiosity and something of which to be aware when conversing with people from Europe. In talking with my wife (who is from Germany), she indicates that the "Liberal Party" in Germany has much more in common with conservatives here in the US and the "Conservatives" in Germany would be called "Liberals" here. Just a case in point. She's lived here for 20+ years so is very familiar with both political systems. The other interesting thing to note is that there's actually a lot of overlap (in my view) between liberals and conservatives and it has to do with the word liberty. Both groups want it for themselves and others.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunWhat you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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What you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
I understand what you are saying and even agree with most of it. But, again you are applying a uniquely American point-of-view, which only makes my case. In any case, I'm making no judgement calls here, just trying to point out the differing views of what liberal and conservative means in other cultures.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
What you have 'mostly' pointed out there only shows that one group tends to be more conservative or liberal over the other. It does not change their base meaning. Your 'poll' may apply a US percpective, but to say they have oppisite meanins in the rest of the world is false. Your note about the political parties in Germany is nothing more than naming. Just because other nations use the term in their political parties (note the US has done that with government types*) does not change the meaning. The "Kewl Liberals of Tomorow" could be completely "conservative" by one persons standards and liberal by another. It is perspective when you think of it that way. But the definition of liberal vs. conservative does not change. * U.S. does this with the "Republican" and "Democratic" parties, which are taken from Republic and Democracy. Has little to do with either, much like the "Peoples Republic of China" is not at all a republic. Its just a name they chose to imply to the rest of the world they were a republic. I can call my dog "Liberal" it does not make him 'a liberal' from one persons percpective over another. In case you really don't know to be a conservative is to avoid drastic change. In the US this often also means refering back to the raw constitution. Liberal however is to be open to change and try to adapt. So a common liberal vs. conservative debate in the US is the right to bear arms. Many liberals see no need in today's world. Conservatives tend to hold true to the constitutional right to bear arms, because it is a right granted by the founding fathers. The water gets mucky when involving religous beliefs etc. because although the nation was founded by mostly Christians, the founding fathers clearly had a seperation of state and church in mind. So again, the conservative vs. liberal definition is set. They are clearly defined words. If some other country wants to use it as a tag on their political party it does not make them "Liberal" or "Conservative". Wanting to adapt or maintain is what defines that. So a "Liberal Party" can be conservative, but that does not change the definition of conservative.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Let me say it a different way. The government systems of most of Europe are socialist, even communist or collectivist in nature, while the US gov't system is quite the opposite, being mainly capitalist and individualist in nature. So someone who calls themselves "conservative" in Europe is more aligned with someone who calls themselves "liberal" in the US. While a European "liberal" is more akin to a US "conservative". Yes, the basic definition of a conservative is someone who attempts to essentially maintain the status quo or restore some form of prior social structure. While a liberal is open to change or even wants what they consider to be something radically different than the current situation. However, what if the societies, political structures and communities in which individuals live are quite different? Then a conservative in one place may actually be more congruent with the principles of a liberal in another, and vice-versa. It is in this way that I mean they have opposite meanings in Europe and the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
I understand what you are saying and even agree with most of it. But, again you are applying a uniquely American point-of-view, which only makes my case. In any case, I'm making no judgement calls here, just trying to point out the differing views of what liberal and conservative means in other cultures.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von BraunI do not understand how a word definition is an "American point-of-view". Honestly I think the poll is silly. Barely any of the questions are really "Conservative" or "Liberal" based. With that said, they are Republican and Democratic based... Somewhat. AND Republicans tend to be conservative (or atleast claim to be) and Democrats tend to be liberal (again they atleast claim to be)... But that does not mean such topics that they focus on are liberal or conservative topics. For example lets take 2 hot political issues which people are misled by (and were used in the poll, one of which I would put money on was used incorrectly) 1.) Gay marraige. Since it is for the most part illegal across the country, the idea of it being legal is a liberal idea. This matches most beliefs of what it is to be liberal. 2.) Abortion. Since it is for the most part legal across the board, the idea of making it illegal is actual NOT a conservative idea. The only way one can claim it is conservative is religous based, that their religon believes it has always been wrong so it was never accepted. However that is a misconception. Although their religon never accepted it our society as a whole never outright rejected it (it is and has been legal). Therefore, attempting to put abortion laws in place is actually a liberal idea. In other cultures (and even here in the US), the media can word play till the end of time. However, they can not change the true definition of its meaning. There are most definately good liberal ideas and good conservative ideas. And bad of both. If one is a follower of more liberal ideas, they can be labelled a liberal and the same is true for a conservative. However this does not change the universal meaning. It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US. The reason being is that we have a different society and laws. If a person in the US wants US laws more like Europe laws they are by definition a liberal (as they want change) and vise versa. If someone in the US wants things the way they are, they are a conservative. Your last line is dead on though...
ahmed zahmed wrote:
differing views of what liberal and conservative
its about the view of what is conservative, but only because of the current state. So long story short yes the views of the conservative people can be opposite but not what is deemed to be conservative.
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I do not understand how a word definition is an "American point-of-view". Honestly I think the poll is silly. Barely any of the questions are really "Conservative" or "Liberal" based. With that said, they are Republican and Democratic based... Somewhat. AND Republicans tend to be conservative (or atleast claim to be) and Democrats tend to be liberal (again they atleast claim to be)... But that does not mean such topics that they focus on are liberal or conservative topics. For example lets take 2 hot political issues which people are misled by (and were used in the poll, one of which I would put money on was used incorrectly) 1.) Gay marraige. Since it is for the most part illegal across the country, the idea of it being legal is a liberal idea. This matches most beliefs of what it is to be liberal. 2.) Abortion. Since it is for the most part legal across the board, the idea of making it illegal is actual NOT a conservative idea. The only way one can claim it is conservative is religous based, that their religon believes it has always been wrong so it was never accepted. However that is a misconception. Although their religon never accepted it our society as a whole never outright rejected it (it is and has been legal). Therefore, attempting to put abortion laws in place is actually a liberal idea. In other cultures (and even here in the US), the media can word play till the end of time. However, they can not change the true definition of its meaning. There are most definately good liberal ideas and good conservative ideas. And bad of both. If one is a follower of more liberal ideas, they can be labelled a liberal and the same is true for a conservative. However this does not change the universal meaning. It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US. The reason being is that we have a different society and laws. If a person in the US wants US laws more like Europe laws they are by definition a liberal (as they want change) and vise versa. If someone in the US wants things the way they are, they are a conservative. Your last line is dead on though...
ahmed zahmed wrote:
differing views of what liberal and conservative
its about the view of what is conservative, but only because of the current state. So long story short yes the views of the conservative people can be opposite but not what is deemed to be conservative.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
It is deffinately possible (and likely) that the conservatives in Europe have different beliefs than the conservatives in the US.
This is essentially what I mean. I'm sorry for confusing meaning of the word with the beliefs of the group. In two different locales, especially international locales, the beliefs/principles can be quite different.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun -
Let me say it a different way. The government systems of most of Europe are socialist, even communist or collectivist in nature, while the US gov't system is quite the opposite, being mainly capitalist and individualist in nature. So someone who calls themselves "conservative" in Europe is more aligned with someone who calls themselves "liberal" in the US. While a European "liberal" is more akin to a US "conservative". Yes, the basic definition of a conservative is someone who attempts to essentially maintain the status quo or restore some form of prior social structure. While a liberal is open to change or even wants what they consider to be something radically different than the current situation. However, what if the societies, political structures and communities in which individuals live are quite different? Then a conservative in one place may actually be more congruent with the principles of a liberal in another, and vice-versa. It is in this way that I mean they have opposite meanings in Europe and the US.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun