Do you need a college education to be a programmer?
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Nowadays, it seems so. Back in the day (70's & early 80's), it wasn't necessary because computers were young.Anyone that started back in that time frame and is still programming (like me) is well beyond the need for a degree. "Time served" is often all that's necessary in that regard.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
There's a lot of benefits to a structured education that you wouldn't get with an apprenticeship. One perfect example, we have a certain person in our company who writes at the third grade level, should have probably been forced to take more english/technical writing courses. Not that taking the courses will guarantee you'll be better at anything, but it'll give you a chance at becoming more well rounded.
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Getting into IT now? You'd have to be very lucky to get a job without a degree these days but then that's probably true for most skilled jobs. When I started? No, a degree was not necessary.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I consider it an excellent idea. But that being said, there needs to be some sort of standard associated with a profession. In a sense, a college degree is a contract; it tells an employer that a candidate has shown competency in this and that area of knowledge. It doesn't guarantee that the individual is a good worker, or honest, or cares about doing quality work, but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum. There's no reason that this can't be extended to apprenticeship, but without it I'd be cautious about what I hired a programmer to do. Would you want to entrust programming a safety-critical function to someone who is self taught and has no certain background? I've known a number of excellent engineers in my career who lacked an engineering degree. They were excellent at their jobs, since most engineers never need half the stuff they teach us. But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement? I wouldn't want one of these guys in that position, especially if public safety was an issue. I've caught a number of serious errors before they've happened because of my degree, things overlooked or not adequately explored by engineers who lacked my education. I would be surprised if such things didn't happen regularly out there in the real world. Programming is a similarly demanding job - at times. Most of the time, though, it just requires a bit of reasoning skill, and a good understanding of a language or two, and a good set of requirements to program a task. Apprentices, and even completely self-taught individuals are entirely capable of doing most routine assignments. I think a set of skills that can be demonstrated via testing, or demonstration to other professionals - a review board, of sorts - would be perfectly acceptable way to train most programmers. Even the reviews people receive here at CodeProject I would consider in evaluating a programmer; we have some of the most skilled programmers on the planet here, and I'd bet that few of them have any formal programming degree. I like the idea! :)
Will Rogers never met me.
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
Tom Clement wrote:
Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer?
I racked up huge debt to go for 2 years and didn't get a degree :P ( I got two certificates). There are lots of things you need to know that you would not encounter on an apprenticeship just to have a deep understanding of what is going on. [joke] or else you'd just be another vb programmer [/joke]. An apprenticeship may work very well if you don't plan to switch careers or technologies. Sure, and apprentice could be very passionate and take it upon theirselves to learn these things. In that case though, I don't think it matters where that person goes once they have been introduced to programming. When someone who has passion for it is introduced, not much will stop them. I think one of the main problems is people who are not passionate about programming getting into programming. I actually know people who get into it for no other reason(s) than things like a) they will need some of it for -x- career b) the money c) prestige d) because their current job now requires it. Still, I think there is lots of merit to a formal education. I did self teach a bit before going to college. I don't think I'd be where I am without having gone.
If it moves, compile it
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
My belief is that most degrees are not required for their 'applicable' job. Often I have seen people with degrees and have totally different roles. This does not mean they are not 'using' their degree though (sometimes that is the case... Getting a job at Wally land after graduating for example). It seems that for the most part a degree says that the person is teachable. It does not say they know how to do XYZ. That is experience. Apprenticeships accomplish it. But so do internships. And so does hard work after school. While an apprentiship may show the person is teachable, that person has now locked into that field or specific study. Were they studying under a .Net Guru or a Java expert? Were they working with managed memory or native? Who was their study under and who did they themselves study under. Some bad habbits may come from that chain. A degree compensates and adjust for best practices. In addition it allows the receiver to dabble in other fields. Maybe it turns out they do not want to be a web developer but would rather be a project manager for web development. This is why degrees have significant breadth. Apprentiship offers great depth study, but at a cost.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Nowadays, it seems so. Back in the day (70's & early 80's), it wasn't necessary because computers were young.Anyone that started back in that time frame and is still programming (like me) is well beyond the need for a degree. "Time served" is often all that's necessary in that regard.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997I don't quite make the cut in terms of time served, since I took my night school class in 1985 and got my job in 1986 :). I agree that nowadays, it does seem like you need a degree to get in the door. My question isn't so much about what are the practical requirements for getting a job. For me, the question is whether it would be a good thing to make it possible for this to change over time. Is the system that does require this now the optimal one?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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I consider it an excellent idea. But that being said, there needs to be some sort of standard associated with a profession. In a sense, a college degree is a contract; it tells an employer that a candidate has shown competency in this and that area of knowledge. It doesn't guarantee that the individual is a good worker, or honest, or cares about doing quality work, but it does establish a level of expertise as a minimum. There's no reason that this can't be extended to apprenticeship, but without it I'd be cautious about what I hired a programmer to do. Would you want to entrust programming a safety-critical function to someone who is self taught and has no certain background? I've known a number of excellent engineers in my career who lacked an engineering degree. They were excellent at their jobs, since most engineers never need half the stuff they teach us. But what if a job came up that really required an in-depth understanding of physics, or a theoretical understanding of the limits of a technique that most pick up as a rule of thumb, along with general engineering judgement? I wouldn't want one of these guys in that position, especially if public safety was an issue. I've caught a number of serious errors before they've happened because of my degree, things overlooked or not adequately explored by engineers who lacked my education. I would be surprised if such things didn't happen regularly out there in the real world. Programming is a similarly demanding job - at times. Most of the time, though, it just requires a bit of reasoning skill, and a good understanding of a language or two, and a good set of requirements to program a task. Apprentices, and even completely self-taught individuals are entirely capable of doing most routine assignments. I think a set of skills that can be demonstrated via testing, or demonstration to other professionals - a review board, of sorts - would be perfectly acceptable way to train most programmers. Even the reviews people receive here at CodeProject I would consider in evaluating a programmer; we have some of the most skilled programmers on the planet here, and I'd bet that few of them have any formal programming degree. I like the idea! :)
Will Rogers never met me.
Yoiks! Way to make me feel 2 feet tall, Roger! Elephanting hell, though, you do have a point though I think it diminishes with time and experience; in other words I'm vastly more knowledgeable now but, more importantly, I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care to cover all the bases and ask for input from as many sources as I can. Fortunately, nothing I work on is a safety critical function but I'd like to think that I bring the same rigor to my craft as anyone, regardless of formal qualifications. ps Close to finishing my comp science degree - you're never too old to learn!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I joined the military back in 1995 as a programmer. I've always wanted to, but never had the time to get my degree, so I'm all experience. I think you at least have to have real world experience or a degree to get a job nowadays.
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There's a lot of benefits to a structured education that you wouldn't get with an apprenticeship. One perfect example, we have a certain person in our company who writes at the third grade level, should have probably been forced to take more english/technical writing courses. Not that taking the courses will guarantee you'll be better at anything, but it'll give you a chance at becoming more well rounded.
Hi Albert, Your point is well taken. I agree that one can get something a bit intangible from attending college (irrespective of the course of study). Perhaps its a little more humility in the face of the vast amount of knowledge that you (might) get exposed to in college? Curing the sophomoric attitude that comes from the first sense of having it all figured out? Really, makes one a more pleasant person to be around :). Following this line of thinking, maybe it's the 4 years of thinking that matters, not so much that it was thinking about computer programming.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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Getting into IT now? You'd have to be very lucky to get a job without a degree these days but then that's probably true for most skilled jobs. When I started? No, a degree was not necessary.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Yep, I agree that that is the reality of things now. My question isn't about the practical requirements as they exist, but more a call for pondering whether other ways of training people should be part of the mix.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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My belief is that most degrees are not required for their 'applicable' job. Often I have seen people with degrees and have totally different roles. This does not mean they are not 'using' their degree though (sometimes that is the case... Getting a job at Wally land after graduating for example). It seems that for the most part a degree says that the person is teachable. It does not say they know how to do XYZ. That is experience. Apprenticeships accomplish it. But so do internships. And so does hard work after school. While an apprentiship may show the person is teachable, that person has now locked into that field or specific study. Were they studying under a .Net Guru or a Java expert? Were they working with managed memory or native? Who was their study under and who did they themselves study under. Some bad habbits may come from that chain. A degree compensates and adjust for best practices. In addition it allows the receiver to dabble in other fields. Maybe it turns out they do not want to be a web developer but would rather be a project manager for web development. This is why degrees have significant breadth. Apprentiship offers great depth study, but at a cost.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Very well put Collin. I think college is a way of growing in your way of thinking, your writing skills, your speaking skills, and your confidence in your ability to always find the answer. Should apprenticeship be part of the overall mix?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
What's a piece of paper got to do with it? You can either do the job or not. I've known a lot of programmers that couldn't program.
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Very well put Collin. I think college is a way of growing in your way of thinking, your writing skills, your speaking skills, and your confidence in your ability to always find the answer. Should apprenticeship be part of the overall mix?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
It certainly wouldn't hurt. Some programs I have seen require internship (usually tech schools though)... Not much difference really but I think the expentance is slightly different. For the individual it has advantages for people to "try out" before signing on the dotted line. For the employer they also get to "try out" the individual to see if they are a cultural fit and if they meet the real job requirements. It also would get the student to take that leap (talking to companies etc.) and still have the saftey net of school (hmmm that really wasn't for me, I think I will start a slightly different path). However making it part of the mix though would be against the university system which in away already has an Apprentiship type system in place. Get your degree Find a Professor to study under Be his lacky (TA, Reasearch Papers etc.) Study for MS Study for Ph.D Become Associate Professor Kiss the Deans butt for years Become a tenured Professor Get your own lackies to Teach and write your papers So keeping this in mind most Universities would not want to 'require' it... Just offer it which they do with internship and Co-Op programs.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
From a technical standpoint it's still my contention after working professionally for 20 years that you don't need a college degree. Nothing I've seen from classes, course outlines, or actual graduates has shown me that a degree makes you a better programmer or prepares you for enterprise development. Apprenticeships would be a wonderful thing. In the meantime, junior development positions I think are a nice way to handle this. Otherwise, coding on your own and creating a portfolio has been a good way to get in the door for an interview when I'm the hiring manager. From an HR standpoint, and sadly, often you need a college degree just to get an interview.
No artists interprets nature as a lawyer interprets the truth.
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
I don't think my degree necessarily helped me other than get me interviews. As others have said HR uses the requirement of a degree as a means to whittle down the applicant list - I have tried applying for jobs where I was told that only "red brick" university degree applicants would be considered. It's all really about getting your foot in the door, once you have done that you have no need for a degree. I would be more interested in what someone can do rather than what they know - but that means diddly-squat if I never get to interview these kinds of people if the manager or HR have binned applications from non-degree holders...
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Yoiks! Way to make me feel 2 feet tall, Roger! Elephanting hell, though, you do have a point though I think it diminishes with time and experience; in other words I'm vastly more knowledgeable now but, more importantly, I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care to cover all the bases and ask for input from as many sources as I can. Fortunately, nothing I work on is a safety critical function but I'd like to think that I bring the same rigor to my craft as anyone, regardless of formal qualifications. ps Close to finishing my comp science degree - you're never too old to learn!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
mark merrens wrote:
I've learnt to value that I don't know everything so take extra care
That's called wisdom, Mark. Some get it, some never do.
mark merrens wrote:
Close to finishing my comp science degree
Way cool! :-D I'm just getting started on my MS, myself, about 30 years late. Better late than never...
Will Rogers never met me.
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
College doesn't teach you to program. It teaches you to learn and to be disciplined.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
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What do you think: Does someone really need to rack up huge student debt and spend 4 or more years in dry college classes just to become a programmer? What about bringing back apprenticeship? Wouldn't it be great for you if you had some smart kid learning from you and helping you out for a few years? Wouldn't it be great for him or her? Here's an article discussing the apprenticeship movement: Let's bring back Apprenticeships[^] I went to college, then to law school. Then I quit that business, took a course in C programming, and made a career of it. I'm not the greatest programmer out there, but I can do the job. Are we investing our treasure wisely spending it on formal education (perhaps wasted in my case), when there are more direct ways of learning a profession. In Texas, where I got my law degree, you could be licensed to practice law based either on formal education or an apprenticeship with a lawyer. Is this such a bad idea?
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
