Do you need a college education to be a programmer?

[crazedDotNetDev]

Absolutely not… In fact, I believe those who need college to be a programmer do not have what it takes to be one. Every 3-4 years I’m doing something new for my job. (I’m not even considering my personal projects.) If one’s 3 ½ years into a 4 year degree, he/she is at least 1 year behind current technology. Coders must be in a constant state of learning, college is optional. That said, the best (and the ones I advise hiring) have experience and a degree. Basically, the best have both.

[snowman53]

Self taught or apprenticeship people have a number of advantages from a practical stand point. However they are generally not accepted by large companies. Part of the problem is a requirement by the US Government that professional positions must have a college degree. This applies to certain forms of government contracting where they want to make sure they are not being charged “Engineer” rates for a “Draftsman”. Many big companies have simplified the book keeping by making a blanket requirement that professional roles are only filled by college graduates.

[crazedDotNetDev]

Actually, I see companies generally accepting self-taught coders and the like. I’ve worked for national and international sized companies for a little more than a decade now. Every coder post I’ve seen has been something like "requires batchler degree or equivalent experience." Now organizations like JPL and NASA actually require degrees. Seems like the close you get to government, the less they care about what you can actually do. As long as you have that paper you’re golden.

[StephenPhillips]

Tom Clement wrote:

I agree that nowadays, it does seem like you need a degree to get in the door.

I'd put that down to the merits of the degree - you have three years of formal education learning how to code, so at the very least one hopes you can pass the technical test before the interview. If you do not have a degree, one assumes you have other things that qualify you for the job, at least to the value of 3+ years of paid study. Sufficient work experience, a comprehensive portfolio, or even key business contacts hooking you up to the right people, etc. are all perfectly valid and recommended methods of getting relevant work. Naturally a combination of the above is all the better. As for (re-)introducing apprenticeship schemes as legitimate door-openers, I'd simply surmise that you mean industry recognition for same; it all comes down to work experience that will help you build a sweet portfolio, land some interviews and pass the tech tests. Whether an employer will view an apprenticeship in the same light as industry experience is another matter.

Sometimes a fist in the face says more than a thousand honeyed words.

[jtcmedia]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the $ factor, as in, pay. I worked at a company as a production manager where I found out that another guy, also a production manager, made $20000 more than me. I asked my boss what gives, who promptly told me that he had a degree whereas I didn't. Since that time I have found again and again that pieces of paper justify higher pay. I disagree with this premise, but it is what it is.

[StephenPhillips]

One does not study Shakespeare for career prospects except, say, in creative writing or (likely theatrical) acting. Also, I daresay most programmers do not study the nuances of the Platonic solids, least of all at university-level. As it happens, some people choose to study a subject because they have an interest in it. Even if a graduate finds their degree to be of little help in finding a job, they will still have matured from several years of the student life. Further, I wouldn't gauge a university's effectiveness or reputation by its number of graduates, nor the quality of programmers it produces. As with all things, programming or otherwise, with a degree or a handful of GCSEs, an individual can find the right job for them if they look in the right places and apply themselves properly. If they are not the right candidate for the job, their choice of education + institute should not be condemned if they are rejected.

Sometimes a fist in the face says more than a thousand honeyed words.

[jschell]

Fabio Franco wrote:

I agree, but usually graduates have a good foundation and get up to speed very fast on real world problems.

I don't know about where your "graduates" come from but here those graduates always have "real world" expertise because they have already worked at real jobs. Now the fact that those jobs were acquired via a connection with the school doesn't alter the fact that the experience originated from the job and not the school.

[KP Lee]

I had a college educated co-worker who couldn't code his way out of a paper bag. (Come to think of it, I haven't coded robots, so neither can I. :-D You should get what I meant. Making the bag wet would make getting out without ripping something, pretty hard too.) The advantage of college is that it gives the perception that you are smart. Reality can be quite removed from perception. Getting someone who is dumb as a post as an apprentice is no picnic either, so it can be perceived as a risk to take someone on. Other people swear by accredidation as the only way to take on employees, while people who have been in the business for a while are accepted easier.

[KP Lee]

Mike Hankey wrote:

I've known a lot of programmers that couldn't program.

I'm lucky, I've only met one. I winced whenever I was assigned to team with him. In three man teams, for two of us, each would have to do 67% of the work needed to get the project finished and he'd provide 1%.

[Mike Hankey]

I've been on both sides of the fence but when I was a team leader I figured you are only as good as your worst programmer so I took the extra time to teach and coach and in the end it paid off.

VS2010/Atmel Studio 6.0 ToDo Manager Extension
Version 3.0 now available.

[KP Lee]

jeffreyhamby wrote:

No artists interprets nature as a lawyer interprets the truth.

That reminds me of Clinton's "What's the definition of 'is'"? :laugh: Spotting someone who could become a good programmer is a gift I don't have. Seeing a good programmer is different. It's a worthwhile endeavor to spend time to bring someone else up to speed, it's not worth spending time when the information you are giving is going straight out the other ear. One time, I was assigned to an indexing task. I knew the tech who would be talking to the customer didn't have the SQL background to explain what I was doing and I wouldn't be there to explain to the customer. In one case, I decided to drop an index. I knew the customer would demand to know why I was removing it. I explained to the tech what indexes did, how they worked, how two specific indexes were related, one was superior, the other inferior. Why I was dropping the better one. He thanked me for teaching him more about SQL in two days than he had ever learned in two years working in an operations group dedicated to maintaining SQL DBs. I wasn't trying to mentor him, I was trying to protect him from an unfair situation I was going to put him in. I also got to learn new things from him. I don't know if he would make a good programmer, but I have more hope for him than the 80% of the people in class going "huh?", when I thought the teacher had clearly expressed one of the simpler concepts in programming. Just today I read an article teaching about 0 and -0 in JavaScript. It was news to me that 1's and 2's compliment could co-exist on the same operating system. It was also obvious the author had never heard of 1's and 2's compliment, because he certainly messed up the binary representation of what's going on under the hood. (IE Beware of who is teaching what.)

[KP Lee]

Yea, but that 17.5% of the extra work both of us were doing WAS trying to teach and coach. How much good does it do teaching a turnup?

[Lost User]

I knew a lot of people in school who took programming... Too bad 80% couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. They ended up being mediocre shoe salespeople .. or VB script kiddies

[steve tabler]

I thought we had apprenticeships, but they are commonly called internships. This question is a hot-button for me today. I don't mean this to sound like a rant, but I am deeply frustrated. I used to work as a hardware engineer. I only had an Associate degree in Electronics tech at the time. I mostly created the position myself while working for a small company that had hired me to do electronics assembly. The company went public to raise money, I worked on several projects, some were strictly hardware, and some involved embedded programming on hardware that I designed (I ended up teaching myself assembly language programming before the first project was completed). I was also responsible for purchasing 90% of the electronic components, the associated inventory, and working with a few outside vendors i.e. machine shops. The company went through a downturn, and I was laid-off. I was repeatedly turned-down for engineering positions in the subsequent job search because of my degree, although my experience was never an issue. I ended up working as an engineer for a friend after that, but that only lasted a couple of years. Then someone approached me and asked if I could untangle some obsolete embedded controllers. He was trying to get started in refurbishing systems that had these controllers in them. The controllers happened to use componets I already knew how to program, and I worked on those for several years as an independent contractor. I also designed a few other controllers and built all the circuit boards in my basement for several years. However, I was till only just barely getting by, and frequently I wasn't getting by when my clients had poor sales. My sister persuaded me to return to school, and get a degree in something. Anything, she said, would make me "more employable". So, I spent a few years obtaining my BS in Computer Science. I graduated Aug 2001. Not a good time to graduate. The job fair on Sept 11th at school was a dud. The only internships were in accounting. After a few months, I enrolled in another university and I received my M.S. in Computer Science in May 2006. So far, and it is now 6 years later, I still haven't been hired! The new "internship program" at the university that was started my last semester there generated 8 internship positions for 50 students, and only 3 of those 8 were in software. The others were in civil engineering, of which I was obvioulsy not qualified for. So, I didn't get into any internships. I have tried to target entry-level po

[Tom Clement]

No, I wouldn't say this sounds like a rant. It sounds to me like a legitimate expression of frustration at what appears to be an unfair situation. You seem smart and skilled. I sincerely feel for you. What I hear about the current hiring environment is that people with some specific skills (J2EE is at the top of the list) are getting multiple offers, and that generally, hiring is picking up. I really hope that's real and that it opens some doors for you. The other thing I'd suggest is that you find some people currently working in the field and ask if you could take them out to lunch (they'll probably buy ;)) for an informational interview. I've done that in past lives and learned a lot from it, not the least of which was (because I asked) what characteristics they look for in hiring, how my interpersonal skills affected them, and generally, how I could make myself into a more attractive candidate. Location is also really important, although it's not at all easy to change, especially on a prayer that you'll be luckier in the new location :(. Finally, when I think about the possibility that I'll be looking for a job at some point (and I deeply hope I won't), I find that I imagine myself in the interview referring to Code Project articles I've written. Something like the interviewer asks about code I've written and I describe some projects, but say that if they want to see specific code they can look at my articles[^]. Not to come across as a CP zealot, but if you can spend some time writing articles that are of general usefulness, it might be a real selling point for the skeptical potential employer. And from your post, it's clear you communicate well, and know how to write. In any case, I wish you the best of luck Steve.

Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]

[bobc4012]

First you need to define the scope of a programmer! I started programming over 50 years ago - before people even knew how to spell "Computer Science". I had no degree, the country was in a recession and I had just got out of the Navy (I was an ET). The company that eventually hired me (to be a machine operator) gave me their aptitude tests, which I scored higher than 95% of the College graduates. The dept. manager that had an open slot decided he needed programmers more than an operator. He gave me the H/W manual and the accompanying Assemble Language manual and a few days to read them (plus the other indoctrination literature). He then handed me a program - pretty much completed, told me generally what it was expected to do and then asked me to look at it and explain it to him (which I did). After that I was classified as a "Programmer". At that time, the other "Programmers" had degrees in almost any conceivable course taught back then - Mathematics, Psychology, English, Physics, Music, etc. I remember the first computer classes that colleges began to offer - A course in "Numerical Analysis" (otherwise known as Fortran). Of course, programming was much simpler back then. Machines were typically around 4KB memory (as much as 16KB) - some were character machines, others were word machines. When disk (and drum) drives became available they were nowhere near today's capacity - they were as little as 10KB and somewhat later as much as 20MB. The first removable disks (disk packs) held 2MB of data. BTW, my "KB" and "MB" were "1000" and "1,000,000" characters. As I indicated, things were much simpler back then. We did have to figure out ways of doing things (like how to fit a 6KB program" into a "4KB of memory - either usurped part of the disk or use 2 tape drives - to avoid repeated wind - rewind). Of course, as time went on, we developed more sophisticated techniques - higher level languages, COBOL, PL/1, ALGOL, Assembly Language Macros, APL, etc. (IBM dominated the computing world back then until the government forced them to "unbundle" - pretty much the same thing Microsoft gets away with today - BTW, prior to unbundling, IBM gave away its S/W to whoever bought or leased its H/W - including the OS source). Back then computer languages were typically procedural. Of course, once colleges started up Computer Science programs things started changing. MIT, IBM, ATT and others collaborated (up to a point). IBM developed VM H/W, ATT went off and developed Unix and C. Of course, Xerox PARC (on the west coast) deve

[Ytrail]

KP Lee wrote:

The advantage of college is that it gives the perception that you are smart.

I disagree with this. I don't know what college your co-worker went too, but the college I go to makes me feel dumb. Some of the courses & projects I have done in college have been extremely hard. I mean I had a 4.0 when I graduated high school, but I do good to keep a 3.5 in college now.

~ Somebody left a footprint...o0=... here...

[steve tabler]

Tom, Thank you for the comments. After reading them, things seem a bit brighter. I think I have 1 or 2 items that I can turn into an article. I used to be very enthusiastic about J2EE, but when I started playing with C#, I liked that better. That was about a year ago. I've been working on about 3 applications I wanted to sell, nothing really major. Based on that as 1 year of self-imposed "profesional" experience, I've been concentrating on entry-level C# positions. So far, the ones that I've gotten a response from have also had a requirement for ASP.net, which I haven't even touched, and I don't get any further consideration. J2EE also comes up in the same conversations, but I've never done anything with it outside the classroom. Steve

[Florin Jurcovici 0]

You're now evaluating a graduate based on the institution where he graduated. You'd do the same with apprentices "graduating" from Adobe, Google, IBM, Microsoft or Oracle - you'd know what and how they do by knowing where they come from. The only different thing would be a shorter feedback loop: you're know evaluating an institution based on the overall success of its graduates in various enterprises, and then evaluate fresh graduates based on the rating of the institution. You'd evaluate apprentices directly based on the success of the companies where they did their apprenticeship. No amount of standards compliance would be able to convince you to hire a former apprentice from IBM if all feedback from the industry is that IBM trains people in a way you can't use.

[Fabio Franco]

jschell wrote:

because they have already worked at real jobs.

Which is the case of many graduates, but not all of them. It's up to them to decide whether they want to start working on internships right away when they start college (or the first couple of years). And there's still the case of people who simply weren't born for the job.

jschell wrote:

experience originated from the job and not the school

That's the idea.

"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson "Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction." ― Francis Picabia