Windows 8
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Abhinav S wrote:
The power-off button?
It was in a virtual machine; probably not the best way to shut it down if it was a physical machine. Heaven-forbid a windows box is shutdown improperly, something evil may be unleashed! RUNNN!!!
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
JoeSox wrote:
It was in a virtual machine; probably not the best way to shut it down if it was a physical machine. Heaven-forbid a windows box is shutdown improperly, something evil may be unleashed! RUNNN!!!
For quite some time now, when I press and release the power button on my PC, Windows has shut down gracefully.
Currently reading: "The Prince", by Nicolo Machiavelli
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This is not good news if you work in your companies IT department. Taking away the normal Start button just plain old sucks. Looks like Microsoft wants IT departments to become Windows 8 Trainers. I better stop now before I get too angry. X| :mad: Sure we are not going to change from Windows 7 for sometime but people will undoubtedly purchase their own laptops and we have to migrate those in. (I had to google just to figure out how to shut down that darn thing)
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
I've seen a slew of these types of complaints lately, and I can't help but think, what's the big effin' deal? I, and many of the developers and users with whom I work, seldom actually shut down our computers. I don't even restart mine unless the infrastructure guys have pushed some changes that require I do so. Same thing at home; when Windows update or other program installation requires a restart, I do so, otherwise, I just sleep it, which is a key on my keyboard. Admittedly, there are other issues with Windows 8 that I think I may not enjoy, but I'm going to wait until something is actually released to market before I start claiming doom and gloom. After all, it's not like I have to switch right away. But about the absence of the start button (which I've also heard may be enabled for those who want it), I can't really seem to get worked up.
Currently reading: "The Prince", by Nicolo Machiavelli
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My theory is this. Windows 8 is not meant to survive or gain any footing. Windows 8 is to aid us developers make the transision. MS knows a shift is comming. It has already started. Now while we look around we say no way, desktop forever. While that may be partially true new things are opening up. Mobile is taking over and businesses understand this. They however don't really 'understand' it. Mobility however is on the Slope of enlightment. MS waitied while others jumped on board and spent literally billions paving the way. Now MS simply is spending their billions for tools. What does this mean? MS is backed by developers who make solid products. That has been their backbone for quite some time now. With a paridigm shift however their tools have become obsolete. Even their OS was not prepped to handle the shift. So it seems that Windows 8 is a guinea pig. It provides devs with WinRT and the new model they have conceptualized. I doubt MS needs the 'businesses' to pick up Windows 8 for this to occur. There is enough market with out it even. Everyday consumers will fill the void (your mom and computer illiterate pappy). Behind them will be a set of developers seeing some $ in the market, or just some developers who program to it as a hobby. After about a year MS will see where they failed and aggressively begin the counter. After about a year or 2 then you will see again a new OS which will likely be consumed by all entities including the businesses that are clinging to XP and/or 7. This newer OS will likely integrate most MS products more fluidly. You can see how they have been trying to do it with ad-hocs over the years. Well these next few releases (all products) are not ad-hocs but re-design. So in summary they have re-designed for the long haul. They will take a hit on the earnings over the next year or two, but after that it is highly likely MS surges most markets. Hate W8 if you want. Or maybe be the first to dabble in it. Learn from it and write blogs and books. Write some simple apps and make some small profit to then fund the larger ventures yet to come.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
If that were indeed Microsoft's plan, whoever came up with it should be fired. It is a horrible business plan. Windows 8 is a very good OS, and with a few tweaks (like putting back the Start button and the familiar Start menu) Windows 8 wil be very popular. I installed Win8-64 on an old Dell laptop (no touch, no wide screen), and it installed and runs fine. I installed the VB6 runtime, and a couple of updates to it we use in XP and Windows 7, and my VB6 app ran just fine. Touch and mobile are expanding the user base (both in quantity, and in terms of using technology in more places). But tasks that require a keyboard and mouse still abide. They are not going away. The ergonomics of using touch while seated at a desk with various insundry books, papers, and post-its scattered about eliminate touch as an option. However, I do see a market for laptop- and desktop-equivalent units using or supporting Microsoft Surface (or some variant of it). Consider what is, in essence, a 21" (or larger) tablet with built-in Bluetooth support for a keybpoard and mouse. But until the existing desktops and laptops without touch have completed their depreciation period (1 to 3 years), and it is cost effective to replace them, Windows 8 needs to fully support the traditional keyboard-and-mouse user interface. That will keep the revenue stream coming so they can work on an even better OS, fully touch-optional applications (like Office), and making the various development tools for web, desktop, touch, database, and "the cloud" one comprehensive tool, purposely and excellently integrated with the Mono products so a developer can use C# or VB to write for Windows, iOS, Android, and Linux (with different UIs to address the different UI concerns, of course). If I were in charge of VS12, that is where we would be headed, and MS would rule the applications running on iOS, Android, and Linux.
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Even those can be shut down using the same hardware button that was used to turn them on - same as all other electronic devices. Sure, a shutdown button would be nice for desktop use. But Windows 8 clearly isn't designed for desktops. It's all about the consumer market and consumers are using laptops, netbooks and tablets.
I thought Windows 8 was all about having one OS codebase for the full range of Windows devices, from smartphones to tablets, embedded devices, laptops, desktops, servers, and massively parallel processing servers. That would logically imply a setting that controls whether the computer uses a Metro interface or a "classic" keyboard-and-mouse interface.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Ahhh, but I have been told that we are stupid for not understanding what Windows 8 is, and that our clients are stupid for wanting to be able to do the things they used to be able to, and that only those who fully embrace metro apps will survive the rapture.
Which is why Ubuntu has been looking really nice lately, esp. version 12, now if app developers would start designing their apps to work in there and not just windows, that would be nice.
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
JoeSox wrote:
Which is why Ubuntu has been looking really nice lately
I've got 2 Ubuntu machines at home and they are still on 10.04, couldn't stand Unity UI. Others are on Mint. Unity's two big problems: hard to find applications that are not "docked" to the sidebar and menu bar is pushed out of the application window and put on the top bar (too much Mac like for my taste).
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This is not good news if you work in your companies IT department. Taking away the normal Start button just plain old sucks. Looks like Microsoft wants IT departments to become Windows 8 Trainers. I better stop now before I get too angry. X| :mad: Sure we are not going to change from Windows 7 for sometime but people will undoubtedly purchase their own laptops and we have to migrate those in. (I had to google just to figure out how to shut down that darn thing)
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
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I work for a major OEM, and I can tell you that there are alot of worried people around here. Win 8 is a disaster in the making. MS will lose alot of people to other OS's.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
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I thought Windows 8 was all about having one OS codebase for the full range of Windows devices, from smartphones to tablets, embedded devices, laptops, desktops, servers, and massively parallel processing servers. That would logically imply a setting that controls whether the computer uses a Metro interface or a "classic" keyboard-and-mouse interface.
The was a hidden registry setting in the Developer Preview, but that was removed in the Consumer Preview. At least for now, Metro is mandatory in Windows 8 - for desktop use, it replaces the start menu.
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The was a hidden registry setting in the Developer Preview, but that was removed in the Consumer Preview. At least for now, Metro is mandatory in Windows 8 - for desktop use, it replaces the start menu.
Too bad. That is such limited, backwards thinking on Microsoft's part.
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This is not good news if you work in your companies IT department. Taking away the normal Start button just plain old sucks. Looks like Microsoft wants IT departments to become Windows 8 Trainers. I better stop now before I get too angry. X| :mad: Sure we are not going to change from Windows 7 for sometime but people will undoubtedly purchase their own laptops and we have to migrate those in. (I had to google just to figure out how to shut down that darn thing)
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
Maybe W8 will simply help warm up the bench alongside Windows Vista and Windows ME
"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson "Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction." ― Francis Picabia
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Ahhh, but I have been told that we are stupid for not understanding what Windows 8 is, and that our clients are stupid for wanting to be able to do the things they used to be able to, and that only those who fully embrace metro apps will survive the rapture. This is paraphrased, but does represent the official line I got when I told MS that my clients will not be upgrading because they rely on desktop application behaviour, and that desktops are dead (based on consumer data, rather than business systems which tend to have a much greater longevity).
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
Like most corporations Microsoft is incapable of admitting to any wrong doing or being in error. We all know that as a whole Vista was a failure of epic proportions and yet look how long it took Microsoft just to say that Vista was not a success. I don't think they ever admitted that Vista was a failure only that it wasn't a success they had hoped for. Once Windows 8 was out and ready the closest thing to being honest about Vista that Microsoft could do was admit that it wasn't a success. The Vista example is a picture perfect example of how corporations (the big guys and not the local mom & pop shop that are incorporated for tax purposes) simply cannot be truthful about anything that is negative. Even though it’s been several years since the Ribbon fiasco hit in Office 2007 Microsoft is still citing its studies as proof that anyone who prefers the traditional menu & tool bars over the Ribbon is not part of the norm. It doesn’t matter how many people speak out about their hatred of the forced Ribbon interface, or how many third party software utilities are made to remove the ribbon and bring back the menu & toolbar interface, or how Microsoft handled pushing it onto you users without their having a choice to use it, Microsoft will always refuse to acknowledge that the rollout of the ribbon was done in anyway other than perfect. Jump to 2012 and Windows 8 and now we see the same arrogant approach with nixing the START button. It’s all about arrogance by a corporation that is led by elitists who believe they know what’s best for the users and not the users themselves. It won’t stop with the START button either. You can bet that the next version of Windows Microsoft will do something as equally dumb and continue to refuse to acknowledge said mistake.
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JoeSox wrote:
It was in a virtual machine; probably not the best way to shut it down if it was a physical machine. Heaven-forbid a windows box is shutdown improperly, something evil may be unleashed! RUNNN!!!
For quite some time now, when I press and release the power button on my PC, Windows has shut down gracefully.
Currently reading: "The Prince", by Nicolo Machiavelli
Sometimes I shut down because Windows has hung. In that case, the graceful shutdown does not occur and I have to hold the power button until it powers off. Once in a while, this operation causes Windows to corrupt some system files (read-only ones, even!) without which it will not boot, and cannot be recovered even with all of the great new repair tools they provide. That means either a re-install or a restore from backup. I've had to do that too many times. There is simply no excuse for designing an operating system to be so fragile, just to save a few milliseconds of write time to disk.
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This is not good news if you work in your companies IT department. Taking away the normal Start button just plain old sucks. Looks like Microsoft wants IT departments to become Windows 8 Trainers. I better stop now before I get too angry. X| :mad: Sure we are not going to change from Windows 7 for sometime but people will undoubtedly purchase their own laptops and we have to migrate those in. (I had to google just to figure out how to shut down that darn thing)
Later, JoeSox CPMCv1.0 - Last.fm - MyFriendfeed - CPForAndroid++
ATL-F4 from the desktop will do a shutdown. Don't get me going. W8 is not going to live on any equipment I own.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
MS waitied while others jumped on board and spent literally billions paving the way. Now MS simply is spending their billions for tools. What does this mean?
Don't call us tools :)
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
My theory is this. Windows 8 is not meant to survive or gain any footing.
Windows 8 is to aid us developers make the transision.Great, but it might just covince many to transition away from Microsoft altogether.
I'm invincible, I can't be vinced
Transition to what though? Ubuntu has already made the same style of shift (radical UI change for touch ability), and other flavors are following. Apple is making the same shift, they just started a little sooner and are doing it a little more slowly. Personally, I think Windows 8 handles a straight mouse based user with a lot of new and interesting systems (having a hot corner for "alt-tab" for example is a great add). Any progress on a UI front will require retraining, so I'd rather have a single big shift than years of having to teach both styles. I had the same reaction to the missing start button, but after actually losing it, I can't say I miss it. The functionality is still there for keyboard pounders, mouse swashbucklers, and now the touchy feeling types too. And none of them have to waste pixels in the corner for something you might use once to start an application.
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If that were indeed Microsoft's plan, whoever came up with it should be fired. It is a horrible business plan. Windows 8 is a very good OS, and with a few tweaks (like putting back the Start button and the familiar Start menu) Windows 8 wil be very popular. I installed Win8-64 on an old Dell laptop (no touch, no wide screen), and it installed and runs fine. I installed the VB6 runtime, and a couple of updates to it we use in XP and Windows 7, and my VB6 app ran just fine. Touch and mobile are expanding the user base (both in quantity, and in terms of using technology in more places). But tasks that require a keyboard and mouse still abide. They are not going away. The ergonomics of using touch while seated at a desk with various insundry books, papers, and post-its scattered about eliminate touch as an option. However, I do see a market for laptop- and desktop-equivalent units using or supporting Microsoft Surface (or some variant of it). Consider what is, in essence, a 21" (or larger) tablet with built-in Bluetooth support for a keybpoard and mouse. But until the existing desktops and laptops without touch have completed their depreciation period (1 to 3 years), and it is cost effective to replace them, Windows 8 needs to fully support the traditional keyboard-and-mouse user interface. That will keep the revenue stream coming so they can work on an even better OS, fully touch-optional applications (like Office), and making the various development tools for web, desktop, touch, database, and "the cloud" one comprehensive tool, purposely and excellently integrated with the Mono products so a developer can use C# or VB to write for Windows, iOS, Android, and Linux (with different UIs to address the different UI concerns, of course). If I were in charge of VS12, that is where we would be headed, and MS would rule the applications running on iOS, Android, and Linux.
Those new platforms can't come without the software to run them, and getting that part right is apparently very difficult. It's the chicken and egg problem of developers not gearing software to small markets.
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Like most corporations Microsoft is incapable of admitting to any wrong doing or being in error. We all know that as a whole Vista was a failure of epic proportions and yet look how long it took Microsoft just to say that Vista was not a success. I don't think they ever admitted that Vista was a failure only that it wasn't a success they had hoped for. Once Windows 8 was out and ready the closest thing to being honest about Vista that Microsoft could do was admit that it wasn't a success. The Vista example is a picture perfect example of how corporations (the big guys and not the local mom & pop shop that are incorporated for tax purposes) simply cannot be truthful about anything that is negative. Even though it’s been several years since the Ribbon fiasco hit in Office 2007 Microsoft is still citing its studies as proof that anyone who prefers the traditional menu & tool bars over the Ribbon is not part of the norm. It doesn’t matter how many people speak out about their hatred of the forced Ribbon interface, or how many third party software utilities are made to remove the ribbon and bring back the menu & toolbar interface, or how Microsoft handled pushing it onto you users without their having a choice to use it, Microsoft will always refuse to acknowledge that the rollout of the ribbon was done in anyway other than perfect. Jump to 2012 and Windows 8 and now we see the same arrogant approach with nixing the START button. It’s all about arrogance by a corporation that is led by elitists who believe they know what’s best for the users and not the users themselves. It won’t stop with the START button either. You can bet that the next version of Windows Microsoft will do something as equally dumb and continue to refuse to acknowledge said mistake.
YSLGuru wrote:
Like most corporations Microsoft is incapable of admitting to any wrong doing or being in error.
That's a very interesting viewpoint and I'm inclined to agree, at least to a certain degree. Some of the "arrogance" might as easily be called "inertia". Microsoft (or any large corporation) seems to get in a mode where they simply (or not so simply!) decide that their idea on how to do things is what's best for everybody. This happens regardless of whether it is really true or not because they have become so huge as to be able to set standards. The assumption, in this case, is that since Windows is an industry standard that it will continue to be so regardless of what ridiculous changes they decide to make to the industry-standard product. As a developer of some 35+ years (most of it with Microsoft technology) this is the first time I find myself seriously considering not moving forward with their latest product iteration. While I'm fine with the existing product (Win7) I have already ceased moving forward with MS Office having found that O2003 continues to serve my needs very well. Same thing with VS2008. Now, obviously, I am only one developer/user. Who cares what I decide I want or do not want to do? However I wonder how many folks out there are feeling the same way I am about this? In short, I am quickly losing faith in Microsoft's decision-making process with their products. To me they should have developed a separate tablet O/S instead of screwing around with a computing model that I and millions of users/developers have become very adept at using and find extremely useful. Metro is a freaking screw-up as far as I'm concerned. I won't go into all the reasons why I think so. All I can do as an individual is just use what works for me and that simply means I'll have money to do other things. I'm not likely to buy any more Microsoft O/S products (or Office, or Visual Studio) because what I have works fantastically well. As for the rest of my career? There's plenty of work to do out there in the existing platform - I doubt I'll ever be forced to deal with Metro. There's enough industry based around what's already there that I feel safe exiting Microsoft's constant upgrade train at this point. That may seem inflexible to some and perhaps it is but this is the first time I've really seen MS diverge so wildly from what used to be a pretty positive forward track. Maybe I'm wrong. If so ... that's O
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My theory is this. Windows 8 is not meant to survive or gain any footing. Windows 8 is to aid us developers make the transision. MS knows a shift is comming. It has already started. Now while we look around we say no way, desktop forever. While that may be partially true new things are opening up. Mobile is taking over and businesses understand this. They however don't really 'understand' it. Mobility however is on the Slope of enlightment. MS waitied while others jumped on board and spent literally billions paving the way. Now MS simply is spending their billions for tools. What does this mean? MS is backed by developers who make solid products. That has been their backbone for quite some time now. With a paridigm shift however their tools have become obsolete. Even their OS was not prepped to handle the shift. So it seems that Windows 8 is a guinea pig. It provides devs with WinRT and the new model they have conceptualized. I doubt MS needs the 'businesses' to pick up Windows 8 for this to occur. There is enough market with out it even. Everyday consumers will fill the void (your mom and computer illiterate pappy). Behind them will be a set of developers seeing some $ in the market, or just some developers who program to it as a hobby. After about a year MS will see where they failed and aggressively begin the counter. After about a year or 2 then you will see again a new OS which will likely be consumed by all entities including the businesses that are clinging to XP and/or 7. This newer OS will likely integrate most MS products more fluidly. You can see how they have been trying to do it with ad-hocs over the years. Well these next few releases (all products) are not ad-hocs but re-design. So in summary they have re-designed for the long haul. They will take a hit on the earnings over the next year or two, but after that it is highly likely MS surges most markets. Hate W8 if you want. Or maybe be the first to dabble in it. Learn from it and write blogs and books. Write some simple apps and make some small profit to then fund the larger ventures yet to come.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
My theory is this. Windows 8 is not meant to survive or gain any footing.
Windows 8 is to aid us developers make the transision. MS knows a shift is comming. It has already started.
Now while we look around we say no way, desktop forever. While that may be partially true new things are opening up. Mobile is taking over and businesses understand this. They however don't really 'understand' it. Mobility however is on the Slope of enlightment.Personally, I think Microsoft could have done us all a favor and simply develop a separate O/S for tablets instead of monkeying with a computing model that is already well understood and deeply embedded in the market. IMHO "Metro" should have been developed as a subsystem to the desktop. This way the platform could continue to move forward without disturbing the existing infrastructure of applications but add the ability to customize things for the tablet space. In its arrogance Microsoft decided that we ALL need to see a new GUI presentation and, oh yeah: you can still have a desktop-like experience as an afterthought. No thanks. I'll stick with W7 until it breaks. If Microsoft persists after W8 with this stupid Metro trick then maybe I'll switch to a Mac! -Max
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Too bad. That is such limited, backwards thinking on Microsoft's part.
MSBassSinger wrote:
Too bad. That is such limited, backwards thinking on Microsoft's part.
BINGO.
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I work for a major OEM, and I can tell you that there are alot of worried people around here. Win 8 is a disaster in the making. MS will lose alot of people to other OS's.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
Kevin Marois wrote:
I work for a major OEM, and I can tell you that there are alot of worried people around here.
Win 8 is a disaster in the making. MS will lose alot of people to other OS's.Yeah. I, for one, am going to use W7 until it breaks. If MS hasn't rectified this stupid Metro situation by then I'll just switch to a Mac!
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YSLGuru wrote:
Like most corporations Microsoft is incapable of admitting to any wrong doing or being in error.
That's a very interesting viewpoint and I'm inclined to agree, at least to a certain degree. Some of the "arrogance" might as easily be called "inertia". Microsoft (or any large corporation) seems to get in a mode where they simply (or not so simply!) decide that their idea on how to do things is what's best for everybody. This happens regardless of whether it is really true or not because they have become so huge as to be able to set standards. The assumption, in this case, is that since Windows is an industry standard that it will continue to be so regardless of what ridiculous changes they decide to make to the industry-standard product. As a developer of some 35+ years (most of it with Microsoft technology) this is the first time I find myself seriously considering not moving forward with their latest product iteration. While I'm fine with the existing product (Win7) I have already ceased moving forward with MS Office having found that O2003 continues to serve my needs very well. Same thing with VS2008. Now, obviously, I am only one developer/user. Who cares what I decide I want or do not want to do? However I wonder how many folks out there are feeling the same way I am about this? In short, I am quickly losing faith in Microsoft's decision-making process with their products. To me they should have developed a separate tablet O/S instead of screwing around with a computing model that I and millions of users/developers have become very adept at using and find extremely useful. Metro is a freaking screw-up as far as I'm concerned. I won't go into all the reasons why I think so. All I can do as an individual is just use what works for me and that simply means I'll have money to do other things. I'm not likely to buy any more Microsoft O/S products (or Office, or Visual Studio) because what I have works fantastically well. As for the rest of my career? There's plenty of work to do out there in the existing platform - I doubt I'll ever be forced to deal with Metro. There's enough industry based around what's already there that I feel safe exiting Microsoft's constant upgrade train at this point. That may seem inflexible to some and perhaps it is but this is the first time I've really seen MS diverge so wildly from what used to be a pretty positive forward track. Maybe I'm wrong. If so ... that's O
Well said. Another interesting observation (In my humble opinion) is the amount of pro "remove the START button" articles and news pieces on various pro Microsoft websites and periodicals. You do have some journalists and independent bloggers raising the issue of why removal of the START button is not such a good idea but most of those are from the independents while most of the commercial journalists are pushing whatever Microsoft wants. They did this same thing back in the days of vista trying hard to down play the negative and up sale the positives. This of course was short lived because Vista was just soo bad. With the Ribbon fiasco in Office the product was still usable and by many users so it was possible to continue ignoring the negatives and the users unhappy with the Ribbon and act like everyone but a handful of non-normal users were tickled pink with the Ribbon. With Vista they just could not act like there was no issue, at least the folks in the so called News media (within the tech industry) could not continue the charade even though Microsoft did. This change for the worse is a growing problem and not just with Microsoft and not just with technology but across the board from bad energy ideas to very bad policies in government (from both ends of the political spectrum). It’s like no one can ever admit being wrong and so they push onward even when doing so is counterproductive or hurtful just so they don’t have to admit failure or being wrong. For example the treatment of public water systems with fluoride. Regardless of what side you are on with this issue the one undeniable fact is that communities pay for the chemical that is added to the water and it’s not cheap. With the amount of (recent) information about the potential negative impacts/side-effects of adding fluoride to the water combined with most governments being broke you’d think they’d at least temporarily stop paying for the fluoride treatment and reduce their budgets by millions (no small amount for a local government) and yet many not only refuse to do that but are paying (in legal fees) to fight grass roots lead efforts to have the fluoride treatment stopped. Both private industry and government are at a point where most are just unable to admit being wrong and so they drive the rest of us to the edge of safety and over to the pit of danger just so they don’t have to admit to anything.