What about W8?
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Microsoft has decided that no one needs desktops anymore, so has cancelled them. We never really needed more than 640k, either... :)
Will Rogers never met me.
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install
Never heard of VirtualBox? Anyway, it's a bit of a shock. I felt lost during the first minutes. I can say the touch interface is nice as long as you imagine to use it on a tablet. But still, I'm not convinced.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] My Blog
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc
MS Office is a set of desktop applications and also the biggest source of income for Microsoft. Does it make you feel better? :)
Last word I heard is that MS is pushing Office to Windows Live.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out?
Pretend it doesn't exist and continue as normal. I installed the new preview of W8 in a VM last night...instead of instructing you to click things, it tells you to touch them, confirming my suspicion that MS has forgotten that desktops still exist. Clearly they get all their information from the numerous incorrect news stories that say the desktop is dead and replaced by tablets. :doh:
Well, unfortunately for us who do technical computing, we don't drive the industry. It's been my observation that high power computing and graphics has been driven mainly by gamers and that the bulk of the total market is for social networking people who don't really do any computing at all. So, I can understand a large corporation wanting a large part of all that action. On the other hand, technical computing is important, but most of it can't be done on small form factor, low power, devices. I don't claim to know the proper mix of things, but what I see indicates that the desktop market that I develop for may be in the process of being abandoned by MS. If that's their business decision, so be it. We'll see what happens. OTOH, we desktop developers will need to find a way to survive and adapt. Whether that is by adapting to W8, switching to Linux, or ignoring things is the immediate question. I don't want to get caught with a bunch of software that no one can use! This is especially worrisome since I was planning to add some serious applications to my current mix and I'd rather have a workable plan for staying in business without having to rewrite everything for some other system. If I end up having to change target systems, then now would seem to be the time to decide what to do. I'll be very interested in seeing what businesses do concerning W8 and beyond. If they mutiny in mass, that means I'll need to support whatever platform they switch to.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything.
Eventually, we will all be walking around with microscopes attached to our eyeballs.
m.bergman
For Bruce Schneier, quanta only have one state : afraid.
To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered. -- Voltaire
In most cases the only difference between disappointment and depression is your level of commitment. -- Marc Maron
I am not a chatbot
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
In other news the sky is falling. Everything that runs on W7 will run on W8. The desktop is still there, and will be for the foreseeable future.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I'm less concerned than I was a few weeks ago because MS has responded to (and fixed) most of what sounded moststupid about the desktop; but at best I think it's going to be XPSP0. Lengthy post I made a few weeks ago on the subject: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4252086#xx4252086xx[^]
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
the company I work fro still has many many XP machines running. I doubt that w8 will even be a factor for me any time in the new decade or so.. I will ignore it and continue working for companies like this most likely and will be lucky to even see a full rollout of Win7 any time soon, much less w8. Since I don't like massive companies and like working for the little guys, that will probably continue to be the case for a few years to come. And if I'm wrong about that part, well I just hope that guys like you will raise enough stink for the situation to be resolved somehow before I have to face it :-D
Common sense is not a gift it's a curse. Those of us who have it have to deal with those that don't.... Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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Well, unfortunately for us who do technical computing, we don't drive the industry. It's been my observation that high power computing and graphics has been driven mainly by gamers and that the bulk of the total market is for social networking people who don't really do any computing at all. So, I can understand a large corporation wanting a large part of all that action. On the other hand, technical computing is important, but most of it can't be done on small form factor, low power, devices. I don't claim to know the proper mix of things, but what I see indicates that the desktop market that I develop for may be in the process of being abandoned by MS. If that's their business decision, so be it. We'll see what happens. OTOH, we desktop developers will need to find a way to survive and adapt. Whether that is by adapting to W8, switching to Linux, or ignoring things is the immediate question. I don't want to get caught with a bunch of software that no one can use! This is especially worrisome since I was planning to add some serious applications to my current mix and I'd rather have a workable plan for staying in business without having to rewrite everything for some other system. If I end up having to change target systems, then now would seem to be the time to decide what to do. I'll be very interested in seeing what businesses do concerning W8 and beyond. If they mutiny in mass, that means I'll need to support whatever platform they switch to.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I think it's suicide to ignore the desktop market, even if the majority of users are on tablets and similar devices, it's nearly impossible to actually write applications for those devices on anything less than a laptop (and even a laptop is, IMO, not sufficient for coding comfortably). Without the applications the OS is useless, and driving away the developers, who depend on the desktop environment, is a good start down that path.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Desktop is not going anywhere. Speak with some MS evangilists or the actual developers and you will see this. Everyone simply has their panties in a bunch because desktop is not the main push. In that I mean the desktop is as it always was... Oh but whats this. OMG a screen where I can't see my desktop!! They took my desktop and are killing it! Wait. No false alarm. Its still there. So why do people care? Who knows. To me most of the flaim "starting" points come from linux and mac user base. I have been using Win 8 for a bit now and I see know issues with still having desktop. I just see added value with metro... If you use it that is. If not, then stick with Win 7. But then again you do not have access to WinRT and can not develop on the Metro stack then....
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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I've been watching the blogs and info about W8 and how it is so different than W7, gets rid of the desktop, etc. I haven't tried it yet, mainly because I'm not sure I have a spare PC to wipe and install. However, some of the information being passed around seems pretty alarming. I do desktop engineering applications using WinForms and there is no way that these could be done on a tablet or smart phone, because there just isn't enough screen space to show everything. I've tried using my apps on a netbook and they are painful to use to say the least. There's just too much to display for an integrated engineering evaluation system. I've thought about porting everything to Linux (last time I tried, it seemed to run OK with Wine, etc.), but that brings up other issues. Turning the system into web apps seems to be out of the question for various reasons, including the massive amounts of data that would need to be transferred, high compute performance needs, and data security concerns. Is anyone else concerned about Microsoft's apparent abandonment of us desktop developers? Are the press and bloggers complaining about nothing? What plans do other desktop developers have for dealing with W8 when it comes out? Or am I just misunderstanding the whole issue?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
gets rid of the desktop,
It doesn't. The desktop is still there. The start mechanism has changed from a menu to a screen of tiles, but the desktop is still behind it if you need it. There is a new class of apps that run full-screen and chromeless, but you can still develop and run desktop applications just fine. There's a whole lot of excessive hand-wringing out there. That's not to say that everyone is gonna instantly fall in love with the new/modified features, but it's not PCmageddon. :)
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In other news the sky is falling. Everything that runs on W7 will run on W8. The desktop is still there, and will be for the foreseeable future.
So, why doesn't Microsoft just come right out and say that?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I'm less concerned than I was a few weeks ago because MS has responded to (and fixed) most of what sounded moststupid about the desktop; but at best I think it's going to be XPSP0. Lengthy post I made a few weeks ago on the subject: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4252086#xx4252086xx[^]
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Thanks for the info. That's good to know, for sure. I hope they do keep the desktop. Whether they add other functionality is a situation I'm not overly concerned with, as long as it doesn't break the desktop apps.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Desktop is not going anywhere. Speak with some MS evangilists or the actual developers and you will see this. Everyone simply has their panties in a bunch because desktop is not the main push. In that I mean the desktop is as it always was... Oh but whats this. OMG a screen where I can't see my desktop!! They took my desktop and are killing it! Wait. No false alarm. Its still there. So why do people care? Who knows. To me most of the flaim "starting" points come from linux and mac user base. I have been using Win 8 for a bit now and I see know issues with still having desktop. I just see added value with metro... If you use it that is. If not, then stick with Win 7. But then again you do not have access to WinRT and can not develop on the Metro stack then....
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote:
gets rid of the desktop,
It doesn't. The desktop is still there. The start mechanism has changed from a menu to a screen of tiles, but the desktop is still behind it if you need it. There is a new class of apps that run full-screen and chromeless, but you can still develop and run desktop applications just fine. There's a whole lot of excessive hand-wringing out there. That's not to say that everyone is gonna instantly fall in love with the new/modified features, but it's not PCmageddon. :)
Marc A. Brown wrote:
There's a whole lot of excessive hand-wringing out there.
That's what I was hoping to hear. Thanks.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I think it's suicide to ignore the desktop market, even if the majority of users are on tablets and similar devices, it's nearly impossible to actually write applications for those devices on anything less than a laptop (and even a laptop is, IMO, not sufficient for coding comfortably). Without the applications the OS is useless, and driving away the developers, who depend on the desktop environment, is a good start down that path.
I agree, but I don't make business decisions for MS.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I've been using it since the developer preview and haven't noticed any performance problems on the desktop side. If there's any change at all in desktop app performance I would expect their performance to increase due to the amount of effort they put into increasing the performance and decreasing memory usage over all.
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So, why doesn't Microsoft just come right out and say that?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I think they've said all along that the desktop is still there and that you'd be able to run desktop apps. Did you ever hear anything to the contrary from a trusted source?
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Thanks. I'm happy to hear that from someone who has actually used it. Have you noticed any performance issues with the desktop apps?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Not really. Tend to have multiple VS 11s running along with some IEs. No issues really other than beta stuff. Yesturday my collegue and I managed to get notepad of all things to give an exception.... NOTEPAD! We had quite the chuckle. We thought, way to go MS. You managed to elephant up the most classic and simple application out there. You never cease to amaze me.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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I'm running the 64-bit version of Win8 in Virtual box on my i7 right now. Runs as well as you might expect in a VM.