F. Progress...
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Apparently you are the dumb one to castigate and ignore a perfectly good technology which, if used properly, is every bit as good as MVC. Here is a reasonable take: ASP.NET MVC v. Web Forms Debate - My View[^] One major point (that is nothing to do with which is better or worse) is that many companies, both large and small, have invested time and money into web forms applications and are not going to throw that away just because some people like MVC as the flavor of the month. There is more to professional development than latching onto an idea and then being so blinded by how 'wonderful' it is that you dismiss anything else as worthless. This is the same argument that evangelists use to denigrate VB.Net. It's a tool, nothing more and, if it fits your needs, whatever the reason is (it's your reason and money so it's valid for you), then use it and ignore all the fools trying to sell you the emperor's new clothes.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Apparently you are the dumb one to castigate and ignore a perfectly good technology which, if used properly, is every bit as good as MVC. Here is a reasonable take: ASP.NET MVC v. Web Forms Debate - My View[^] One major point (that is nothing to do with which is better or worse) is that many companies, both large and small, have invested time and money into web forms applications and are not going to throw that away just because some people like MVC as the flavor of the month. There is more to professional development than latching onto an idea and then being so blinded by how 'wonderful' it is that you dismiss anything else as worthless. This is the same argument that evangelists use to denigrate VB.Net. It's a tool, nothing more and, if it fits your needs, whatever the reason is (it's your reason and money so it's valid for you), then use it and ignore all the fools trying to sell you the emperor's new clothes.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
The things us poor developers have to do for money
Eh? But that is exactly the point. If the customer wants you to re-write part of the app then you do it. And charge them for it. And if you are smart you structure is so your retain ownership so you can now have a new feature that someone else paid for.
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Apparently you are the dumb one to castigate and ignore a perfectly good technology which, if used properly, is every bit as good as MVC. Here is a reasonable take: ASP.NET MVC v. Web Forms Debate - My View[^] One major point (that is nothing to do with which is better or worse) is that many companies, both large and small, have invested time and money into web forms applications and are not going to throw that away just because some people like MVC as the flavor of the month. There is more to professional development than latching onto an idea and then being so blinded by how 'wonderful' it is that you dismiss anything else as worthless. This is the same argument that evangelists use to denigrate VB.Net. It's a tool, nothing more and, if it fits your needs, whatever the reason is (it's your reason and money so it's valid for you), then use it and ignore all the fools trying to sell you the emperor's new clothes.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
...and thence came haters... :) Note to you - my client made 0 investments into the WebForms. And to start today with webforms in developing a public website that's supposed to scale, and to be a new business direction, is a dumb-dumb idea. I developed in webforms for a few years before i started with MVC, so you won't sell this crap to me again. Eating up traffic on constant swaps of view state between client and server - no, thank you.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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...and thence came haters... :) Note to you - my client made 0 investments into the WebForms. And to start today with webforms in developing a public website that's supposed to scale, and to be a new business direction, is a dumb-dumb idea. I developed in webforms for a few years before i started with MVC, so you won't sell this crap to me again. Eating up traffic on constant swaps of view state between client and server - no, thank you.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
and thence came haters
Show me where I said I hated it.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
And to start today with webforms in developing a public website that's supposed to scale, and to be a new business direction, is a dumb-dumb idea.
Again, a statement based on what, exactly? I've seen (and built) many web forms applications that scale just fine and serve large numbers of diverse users without a hitch.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I developed in webforms for a few years before i started with MVC, so you won't sell this crap to me again.
There must be many potential employers reading what you have written that will now delight in rejecting your resume: you may be smart (I really have no idea) but your attitude is poor and is very closed minded: I can't think of a team into which you would fit without causing disruption. I wish you luck in your career: unless you change you're going to need it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
The things us poor developers have to do for money
Eh? But that is exactly the point. If the customer wants you to re-write part of the app then you do it. And charge them for it. And if you are smart you structure is so your retain ownership so you can now have a new feature that someone else paid for.
Your notion of smart seems dubious. I want to do what I believe is right, both technologically and morally. I do not want to screw up the client and do it just for money. And no, the customer isn't asking to rewrite anything, he asked for a brand new product, a new public website, from A to Z.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
and thence came haters
Show me where I said I hated it.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
And to start today with webforms in developing a public website that's supposed to scale, and to be a new business direction, is a dumb-dumb idea.
Again, a statement based on what, exactly? I've seen (and built) many web forms applications that scale just fine and serve large numbers of diverse users without a hitch.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I developed in webforms for a few years before i started with MVC, so you won't sell this crap to me again.
There must be many potential employers reading what you have written that will now delight in rejecting your resume: you may be smart (I really have no idea) but your attitude is poor and is very closed minded: I can't think of a team into which you would fit without causing disruption. I wish you luck in your career: unless you change you're going to need it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Show you where you first were bluntly rude and then condescending? If it is not apparent to you, then it is you who will have trouble fitting into a team. So stop pouring garbage on others.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
The things us poor developers have to do for money
Eh? But that is exactly the point. If the customer wants you to re-write part of the app then you do it. And charge them for it. And if you are smart you structure is so your retain ownership so you can now have a new feature that someone else paid for.
I agree completely. As a consultant, it is your job to recommend the best solution possible but in the end, it is the customer's decision which direction to go in. I've been on both sides of that situation. As a customer, I've had to specify how I wanted certain systems developed. I would listen to my consultants, but in the end, if they didn't do what I want, I replaced them. It was my job to do what was best for my company and I was responsible for that. As a consultant, I've had my suggestions overridden (going through that now, actually). I make sure my views are clearly stated and I also make sure the customer knows why I recommend a certain way over another way. That way, if things don't work out well, I can tactfully point to my earlier recommendations that were ignored. That keeps the blame on the customer. However, I work for the customer. If I don't want to do what they want me to do, I don't take the job. If I agree to the job, I do what they want. It is as simple as that.
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Your notion of smart seems dubious. I want to do what I believe is right, both technologically and morally. I do not want to screw up the client and do it just for money. And no, the customer isn't asking to rewrite anything, he asked for a brand new product, a new public website, from A to Z.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Two points. 1. The client is always right 2. When the client is wrong, see point 1. It is not your place to dictate the technology to the client. If they say they want it in Crayola, it's your job to do it in Crayola - by all means, point out why you would like to do it in Playdoh, but be prepared to accept it when they say they must have Crayola. If you can't, you step aside and leave it to someone who can. BTW - it's generally not good form to call the boss dumb. He may well have reasons that you don't know about.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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I agree completely. As a consultant, it is your job to recommend the best solution possible but in the end, it is the customer's decision which direction to go in. I've been on both sides of that situation. As a customer, I've had to specify how I wanted certain systems developed. I would listen to my consultants, but in the end, if they didn't do what I want, I replaced them. It was my job to do what was best for my company and I was responsible for that. As a consultant, I've had my suggestions overridden (going through that now, actually). I make sure my views are clearly stated and I also make sure the customer knows why I recommend a certain way over another way. That way, if things don't work out well, I can tactfully point to my earlier recommendations that were ignored. That keeps the blame on the customer. However, I work for the customer. If I don't want to do what they want me to do, I don't take the job. If I agree to the job, I do what they want. It is as simple as that.
Wonderfully said, thank you. The only kind of response I was hoping to get.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
If you cannot dictate the platform and you disagree with the clients decision then walk away, doing the job when you cannot commit to the tech means you will always be negative towards the project, walk away. This is of course mitigated by your need to retain the client and the potential income but walking away will emphasise your commitment to your recommendation and may get him to move off his stand. It may also lose you the client.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Two points. 1. The client is always right 2. When the client is wrong, see point 1. It is not your place to dictate the technology to the client. If they say they want it in Crayola, it's your job to do it in Crayola - by all means, point out why you would like to do it in Playdoh, but be prepared to accept it when they say they must have Crayola. If you can't, you step aside and leave it to someone who can. BTW - it's generally not good form to call the boss dumb. He may well have reasons that you don't know about.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
It kind of sums up what Tim Corey said here just earlier, except for the dump boss part :) In my experience, at least every second employee thinks his boss is dumb :) The important moral aspect is if you say your boss is dumb, at least not to give up his name :)
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad:
Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period.It all depends on how you phrase it. If your argument was purely technical, then you shouldn't be surprised if they weren't receptive. You need to streess things such as increased Return On Investment, lowered operating costs, decreased support costs and the opportunities for enhancement (and I'm not talking about the dodgy spam email type of enhancement). You have to learn how to phrase things to the client, and not to try to dictate to them. It could be that the client views WebForms as having longevity, and is concerned about the possibility of MS dropping MVC. Given their recent showing with dropping tech stacks at the drop of a hat, I wouldn't be surprised if your client was worried.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Wonderfully said, thank you. The only kind of response I was hoping to get.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
So you only want responses where people agree with you? Hmmm.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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If you cannot dictate the platform and you disagree with the clients decision then walk away, doing the job when you cannot commit to the tech means you will always be negative towards the project, walk away. This is of course mitigated by your need to retain the client and the potential income but walking away will emphasise your commitment to your recommendation and may get him to move off his stand. It may also lose you the client.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
I signed this small contract being hired as a specialist in ASP.NET MVC. I even removed mentioning WebForms from my CV, because I didn't want to deal with it anymore. And when the job has started, hallelujah, WebForms. Oh well, i'm almost over it, the contract is very short anyway, that's the only bright spot... Cheers!
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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So you only want responses where people agree with you? Hmmm.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
You weren't paying attention to the hierarchy of answers. It wasn't my post he was agreeing with.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad:
Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period.It all depends on how you phrase it. If your argument was purely technical, then you shouldn't be surprised if they weren't receptive. You need to streess things such as increased Return On Investment, lowered operating costs, decreased support costs and the opportunities for enhancement (and I'm not talking about the dodgy spam email type of enhancement). You have to learn how to phrase things to the client, and not to try to dictate to them. It could be that the client views WebForms as having longevity, and is concerned about the possibility of MS dropping MVC. Given their recent showing with dropping tech stacks at the drop of a hat, I wouldn't be surprised if your client was worried.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
I had those too. Just about any ASP.NET developer that we have on the local market are looking for MVC positions. Those looking for WebForms are between sparse and non-existing. Finding support for MVC around here is much easier than WebForms already, not to mention the near future. That was one such argument. Didn't work either :)
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
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Show you where you first were bluntly rude and then condescending? If it is not apparent to you, then it is you who will have trouble fitting into a team. So stop pouring garbage on others.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
And now show me where I was rude? (Note that calling your boss dumb on a public website is not only rude but a touch careless).
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
(I'm a newbie compared to most of you here, so ignore my 2c if you want) I'm going to agree with the others who have replied. I've recently rejected a job for a client who insisted that the huge changes they require are developed in the technology it is currently in - JSP. I basically gave them my recommendation of moving the existing tech into .NET and scaling it from there, or building on the existing tech with .NET, which they declined to do. My response was that I am not a JSP developer and that I simply could not help them with this project. ..long story short, I'm now developing an even larger application from scratch in .NET for them; it's completely unrelated to the above project. However I think they really appreciated that I didn't attempt to jump in the deep end, charge them ridiculous amounts for it and that I didn't push my suggestions on them. I now have a wealthy, stable client that is willing for me to come to the table for every project they require.
If you don't succeed, redefine success!