Vaccinations
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http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/doctors-unite-to-smash-the-anti-vaccine-group/comments-e6freuy9-1226431497313[^] This is the link to the paper article.
I don't speak Idiot - please talk slowly and clearly "I have sexdaily. I mean dyslexia. Fcuk!" Driven to the arms of Heineken by the wife
Thanks, I commented.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Does any of the lunatics have any solid proof that these vaccines are bad?
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations. What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Bloody hell. What a pile of crap. Let me explain some things here 1 - correlation is not causality. Vaccinations occur before it's possible to know if someone is autistic. The child was already autistic. This is because: 2 - you can't CATCH autism, nor is there any known mechanism to make it occur post birth. It's a condition of brain development ( there is some thought that it's a form of hyper masculinity ). As such, nothing can cause it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ryanb31 wrote:
I don't know about the "lunatics" having proof or not but I personally know a young girl who became autistic after getting immunizations.
I bet if you looked around you could find a child that was killed in a automobile accident after getting immunized as well. Same causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
What makes anyone think there is any chemical drug that has no side effects?
That of course has nothing to do with your previous assertion. Do you know anyone that has died of measles, whooping cough or polio? Those of course are the "side effects" of not getting immunized. Proven side effects.
I wish I could 12 this instead of 5ing it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ftfy Proven possible side effects.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yes, that's right. If you get immunised, then the possibility of dying of a preventable disease is greatly diminished. That's why we do it. And the correlation is far greater than the random correlation you find because you look for it, with autism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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the loonies who think vaccinations cause autism, etc.
Not only have there been studies to confirm that autism is a possible side-effect but I have seen it first hand. A young healthy normal girl that we have known for years became autistic after getting immunizations one year. Why do you think they are completely safe? What evidence do you have?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Correlation is not causality.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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There are no reputable studies that show that.
Not according to your definition of reputable.
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Which only demonstrates that you know knowing about autism nor science.
When I see someone, not just one person, get sick from vaccinations you are telling me science has the answer and I don't? OK, so what is the answer?
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Have you ever heard of google?
I do. Here, let me help you. Click here.[^] Then you quote an article on immunizenow.org. Really? Really? ImmunizeNow.org? That is your reputable source? Wow.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Not according to your definition of reputable.
his definition is the scientific one. It means a study that was done where the methods are published and subject to peer review. It's the ONLY definition.
ryanb31 wrote:
When I see someone, not just one person, get sick from vaccinations you are telling me science has the answer and I don't? OK, so what is the answer?
Correlation is not causality. People get sick all the time. Some people are autistic, but autism is not evident from birth ( there are some potential indicators, if you look for them, but it's not evident ). It IS true that a small number of people get sick when immunised. A much larger number of people die from not being immunised. That is the trade off, it's not a perfect world. But no child has ever 'caught autism', not from a vaccination, a toilet seat, or a blow to the head.
ryanb31 wrote:
The great thing about the web is that if you search not for the facts, but for studies that prove your point of view, you're bound to find something. That's because science is the new religion, you need the blessing of science and not the gods to convince people nowadays, so anyone with an axe to grind, will come up with a 'study'.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Bloody hell. What a pile of crap. Let me explain some things here 1 - correlation is not causality. Vaccinations occur before it's possible to know if someone is autistic. The child was already autistic. This is because: 2 - you can't CATCH autism, nor is there any known mechanism to make it occur post birth. It's a condition of brain development ( there is some thought that it's a form of hyper masculinity ). As such, nothing can cause it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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nothing can cause it.
How intelligent. I have seen it happen, more than once. The girl was not autistic. She was 12 when this happened. And the young man I know who had the similar issue was 20 when it happened.
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here is some thought that it's a form of hyper masculinity
You even admit no one knows everything about it, yet you claim to know it can't develop from chemicals in the body.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Correlation is not causality.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Yes, that's right. If you get immunised, then the possibility of dying of a preventable disease is greatly diminished. That's why we do it. And the correlation is far greater than the random correlation you find because you look for it, with autism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Are you a father? If so, you are telling me that you would rather risk a mental disorder or even death for your child just so they don't get the flu? If that is the case, fine, you're doing the best you can. I disagree but I don't hate you for it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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nothing can cause it.
How intelligent. I have seen it happen, more than once. The girl was not autistic. She was 12 when this happened. And the young man I know who had the similar issue was 20 when it happened.
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here is some thought that it's a form of hyper masculinity
You even admit no one knows everything about it, yet you claim to know it can't develop from chemicals in the body.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Again, correlation is not causality. There are things we're learning about the nature of autism, but we know it's caused in the womb, there's no question of that. I've read widely on autism and my wife works with autistic children. My knowledge goes a little deeper than the sort of pseudo science spread by vaccination scare mongers. I'm sorry you know someone whose autism was discovered at 12, but the odds of vaccination causing it, are zero. This is a proven fact. Proven facts trump personal experience mixed with conjecture. That's how science works. Are you claiming that because we don't know everything about something, that we must know nothing ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Not according to your definition of reputable.
his definition is the scientific one. It means a study that was done where the methods are published and subject to peer review. It's the ONLY definition.
ryanb31 wrote:
When I see someone, not just one person, get sick from vaccinations you are telling me science has the answer and I don't? OK, so what is the answer?
Correlation is not causality. People get sick all the time. Some people are autistic, but autism is not evident from birth ( there are some potential indicators, if you look for them, but it's not evident ). It IS true that a small number of people get sick when immunised. A much larger number of people die from not being immunised. That is the trade off, it's not a perfect world. But no child has ever 'caught autism', not from a vaccination, a toilet seat, or a blow to the head.
ryanb31 wrote:
The great thing about the web is that if you search not for the facts, but for studies that prove your point of view, you're bound to find something. That's because science is the new religion, you need the blessing of science and not the gods to convince people nowadays, so anyone with an axe to grind, will come up with a 'study'.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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his definition is the scientific one.
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
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not evident from birth
Do you even know anyone autistic? You are full of it. I have some good friends who have had 2 autistic children and the doctor, not a "lunatic", told them they were autistic.
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A much larger number of people die from not being immunised.
Not in the US.
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the facts,
I'm telling you I have seen it, if you search Google you'll see there are many, many people who make the same claim. We're all lying? Oh, to be as smart as you. If we could all be so lucky.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Are you a father? If so, you are telling me that you would rather risk a mental disorder or even death for your child just so they don't get the flu? If that is the case, fine, you're doing the best you can. I disagree but I don't hate you for it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I don't hate you, I'm just incredulous. Yes, I have two kids and both had their vaccinations. As I said, my wife deals with autistic children in her job, and she works with people who are professionally involved, and they have never suggested that any autistic child they saw, was that way because of a vaccination, nor is there any evidence to suggest that might be true. Anecdotes are not evidence, that a child is autistic and had a vaccination, does not prove that vaccinations caused it. It's only because of a flawed study that has been discredited that people would even make that connection. Would I rather my child have a tiny risk of a side effect than a much larger risk of dying or being really sick ? Yes. Am I selfish enough to make my child a carrier to lower his/her risk of a vaccination side effect and allow others to risk that side effect to create the herd immunity I'd be counting on while weakening it ? No. I'd rather that everyone get vaccinated to not bring back a world where the average life expectancy is 40, and high infant mortality from now preventable diseases was the main reason for that. I am just incredulous that someone on a programming site could fall for such ignorance, I presume on the basis of not doing any real research beyond listening to the media that is designed to spread what is a lie.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Again, correlation is not causality. There are things we're learning about the nature of autism, but we know it's caused in the womb, there's no question of that. I've read widely on autism and my wife works with autistic children. My knowledge goes a little deeper than the sort of pseudo science spread by vaccination scare mongers. I'm sorry you know someone whose autism was discovered at 12, but the odds of vaccination causing it, are zero. This is a proven fact. Proven facts trump personal experience mixed with conjecture. That's how science works. Are you claiming that because we don't know everything about something, that we must know nothing ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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but the odds of vaccination causing it, are zero. This is a proven fact.
It is not a proven fact. If it were a proven fact I would not have been able to witness it. At one point in history, it was a proven fact that the earth was flat. Doctors used to encourage patients to smoke, and that was only 60 years ago!! You think you are so smart because of some scientific study funded by the medical industry that even when someone says they have witnessed it you still claim it can't be true. This quote describes you to a T. "Why is it that when you tell a man there are 400 billion stars he will believe you, but when you tell him there's wet paint he has to touch it?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Correlation is not causality.
Very good. And?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Therefore, a child I know had her autism found after a vaccination, does not prove the vaccination caused it. In the absence of any proven mechanism to cause autism at all, it's a spurious claim at best.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Therefore, a child I know had her autism found after a vaccination, does not prove the vaccination caused it. In the absence of any proven mechanism to cause autism at all, it's a spurious claim at best.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I don't hate you, I'm just incredulous. Yes, I have two kids and both had their vaccinations. As I said, my wife deals with autistic children in her job, and she works with people who are professionally involved, and they have never suggested that any autistic child they saw, was that way because of a vaccination, nor is there any evidence to suggest that might be true. Anecdotes are not evidence, that a child is autistic and had a vaccination, does not prove that vaccinations caused it. It's only because of a flawed study that has been discredited that people would even make that connection. Would I rather my child have a tiny risk of a side effect than a much larger risk of dying or being really sick ? Yes. Am I selfish enough to make my child a carrier to lower his/her risk of a vaccination side effect and allow others to risk that side effect to create the herd immunity I'd be counting on while weakening it ? No. I'd rather that everyone get vaccinated to not bring back a world where the average life expectancy is 40, and high infant mortality from now preventable diseases was the main reason for that. I am just incredulous that someone on a programming site could fall for such ignorance, I presume on the basis of not doing any real research beyond listening to the media that is designed to spread what is a lie.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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nor is there any evidence to suggest that might be true.
There is so much evidence, I even pointed you to the google search which showed the results and you still deny it. That's fine. The risk is not high, but it is there.
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any real research
I have 5 kids. We have researched this beyond what you know. I have seen both sides of the argument. You have only seen the one side. How can you make a logical decision based on that.
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any real research
Eyewitness. How more real can you get.
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listening to the media
I don't even own a TV. If I had to guess the media is all for vaccinations so what is that supposed to mean?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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but the odds of vaccination causing it, are zero. This is a proven fact.
It is not a proven fact. If it were a proven fact I would not have been able to witness it. At one point in history, it was a proven fact that the earth was flat. Doctors used to encourage patients to smoke, and that was only 60 years ago!! You think you are so smart because of some scientific study funded by the medical industry that even when someone says they have witnessed it you still claim it can't be true. This quote describes you to a T. "Why is it that when you tell a man there are 400 billion stars he will believe you, but when you tell him there's wet paint he has to touch it?"
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
It is not a proven fact. If it were a proven fact I would not have been able to witness it.
You have not witnessed it. You think you have. The human mind is designed to look for patterns, and when told of a pattern that is false, we're likely to find it.
ryanb31 wrote:
At one point in history, it was a proven fact that the earth was flat.
Far less than you probably think. That Columbus thought the earth was flat is a myth, for example. Maps existed to show it was round. They came out of China.
ryanb31 wrote:
You think you are so smart because of some scientific study funded by the medical industry that even when someone says they have witnessed it you still claim it can't be true.
I know what science is. I know what peer review is. I know what conspiracy nuts are. You haven't seen what you claim. You've seen an autistic child that was vaccinated and assigned causality in your mind. It is not proven.
ryanb31 wrote:
This quote describes you to a T. "Why is it that when you tell a man there are 400 billion stars he will believe you, but when you tell him there's wet paint he has to touch it?"
This is what I'm talking about. I am referring to science and the scientific method, and you are hysterical ( in the literal sense ). I am EXACTLY like that. Tell me that there's a fact that has been investigated, and I may take an interest in knowing the proof, but I trust that peer reviewed science leads us to fact, and that conspiracy theories require the same burden of proof as mainstream science, and often fail that test, relying on anecdotes and the assumption that if two things happened, they must be related. On the other hand, if I am able to test a theory myself, then I will do so before believing it. That's actually a good synopsis of science, which is, of course, the reason we're able to discuss this at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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nor is there any evidence to suggest that might be true.
There is so much evidence, I even pointed you to the google search which showed the results and you still deny it. That's fine. The risk is not high, but it is there.
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any real research
I have 5 kids. We have researched this beyond what you know. I have seen both sides of the argument. You have only seen the one side. How can you make a logical decision based on that.
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any real research
Eyewitness. How more real can you get.
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listening to the media
I don't even own a TV. If I had to guess the media is all for vaccinations so what is that supposed to mean?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
There is so much evidence, I even pointed you to the google search which showed the results and you still deny it. That's fine. The risk is not high, but it is there.
There is zero evidence. Experience based on a false belief is not evidence. A theory with no mechanism to explain it, is not evidence. A google search for people who agree with you is not evidence. I've explained why all those people are mistaken. And if you're right, then what you're saying is that there's a small risk of autism ( there is not ) and that that small risk is a good reason to accept a much higher risk of infant mortality ( which I disagree with ).
ryanb31 wrote:
I have 5 kids. We have researched this beyond what you know. I have seen both sides of the argument. You have only seen the one side. How can you make a logical decision based on that.
This is a false assumption. I've seen both sides. I just don't make the mistake of assigning the alternative view a lower burden of proof than the mainstream one, or letting fear for my own kids stop me from thinking reasonably.
ryanb31 wrote:
Eyewitness. How more real can you get.
Well, that just shows you have no idea about how science works. Eyewitness evidence that two events occurred and an assumption of causality is not evidence. A double blind test would be evidence, and where that is not ethical, an attempt to find data in the real world that we can extrapolate conclusions from, combined with an attempt to find a causality to explain the claim being made, will do.
ryanb31 wrote:
I don't even own a TV. If I had to guess the media is all for vaccinations so what is that supposed to mean?
No, you do google searches for 'autism caused by vaccinations' and think that is unbiased evidence.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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his definition is the scientific one.
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
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not evident from birth
Do you even know anyone autistic? You are full of it. I have some good friends who have had 2 autistic children and the doctor, not a "lunatic", told them they were autistic.
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A much larger number of people die from not being immunised.
Not in the US.
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the facts,
I'm telling you I have seen it, if you search Google you'll see there are many, many people who make the same claim. We're all lying? Oh, to be as smart as you. If we could all be so lucky.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
Have people who eschew the scientific method and fly in the face of all evidence ever been right ? If they have, does that prove they are right in this instance ?
ryanb31 wrote:
Do you even know anyone autistic?
Yes, my daughter has autistic friends, and my wife works with autistic kids. I'm pretty widely read on the topic as a result.
ryanb31 wrote:
I have some good friends who have had 2 autistic children and the doctor, not a "lunatic", told them they were autistic.
I'm not sure of your point here. I never said these two kids are not autistic. I said there is zero chance that vaccinations cause it. I also said there are some early childhood indicators that may in some cases lead to an early diagnosis, but autism is not a disease like cancer. It's a spectrum, in fact Aspergers does not exist as a separate condition any more, it's on the weak end of the autism spectrum ( and I have it, if we're talking about my qualifications to know about these things ). My aspergers was misdiagnosed as schizophrenia when I was a baby, so the indicators and what we know about them are pretty new, in the scheme of things. But, being a spectrum, some kids will be evident before others. The fact is simply that no autism has ever been caused by a vaccination, nor has any mechanism been proposed that has any evidence, for that to happen.
ryanb31 wrote:
Not in the US.
If that is true today, it's only because most people get vaccinations. More people would die if there were no vaccinations, than die from vaccinations. It CAN rarely happen, but the risk is tiny compared to the benefit. That's why infant mortality is much less, not equal or more, today.
ryanb31 wrote:
I'm telling you I have seen it, if you search Google you'll see there are many, many people who make the same claim. We're all lying? Oh, to be as smart as you. If we could all be so lucky.
Don't be an ass. Like I said, some people have autism. Most kids get vaccinated. People who give credence to a false claim, will think that one causes the other. They do not. If we were to claim that orange juice causes autism, and the story took hold, the world would be full of pe
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ryanb31 wrote:
It is not a proven fact. If it were a proven fact I would not have been able to witness it.
You have not witnessed it. You think you have. The human mind is designed to look for patterns, and when told of a pattern that is false, we're likely to find it.
ryanb31 wrote:
At one point in history, it was a proven fact that the earth was flat.
Far less than you probably think. That Columbus thought the earth was flat is a myth, for example. Maps existed to show it was round. They came out of China.
ryanb31 wrote:
You think you are so smart because of some scientific study funded by the medical industry that even when someone says they have witnessed it you still claim it can't be true.
I know what science is. I know what peer review is. I know what conspiracy nuts are. You haven't seen what you claim. You've seen an autistic child that was vaccinated and assigned causality in your mind. It is not proven.
ryanb31 wrote:
This quote describes you to a T. "Why is it that when you tell a man there are 400 billion stars he will believe you, but when you tell him there's wet paint he has to touch it?"
This is what I'm talking about. I am referring to science and the scientific method, and you are hysterical ( in the literal sense ). I am EXACTLY like that. Tell me that there's a fact that has been investigated, and I may take an interest in knowing the proof, but I trust that peer reviewed science leads us to fact, and that conspiracy theories require the same burden of proof as mainstream science, and often fail that test, relying on anecdotes and the assumption that if two things happened, they must be related. On the other hand, if I am able to test a theory myself, then I will do so before believing it. That's actually a good synopsis of science, which is, of course, the reason we're able to discuss this at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Back and forth, back and forth. I just hope your child never gets a mental disorder or worse, from vaccinations. Stick to your science. When it is proven wrong, I guess it will be easy for you to change your mind because all you do is follow science, not the god-given brain that you should have. There are studies that show autism is linked to vaccines and there are studies to show it is not. Who cares? If people do not want to vaccinate their children leave them alone. What do you care? We've gone back and forth and clearly neither of us will be moved but your original comment was calling people who do not vaccinate "loonies." Grow up. It's fine to disagree but why be childish about it? I have a lot of friends who do not vaccinate and they think you are loony. So what?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.