Vaccinations
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You understood it to be an analogy so obviously it succeeded.
Succeeded? Yes, I understood you were trying to make an analogy. No, the analogy did not work. So, if you call that succeeding, you have low expectations of yourself.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Succeeded? Yes, I understood you were trying to make an analogy
Thus it was in fact an analogy.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, if you call that succeeding, you have low expectations of yourself.
Your failure to to accept it has nothing to do with my mental state.
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ryanb31 wrote:
I have seen it
Since you're not willing to reveal any details (or you don't know any more) it's not like your hypothesis is open to critical scrutiny. You're just declaring it to be so, therefore it is so. This is problematic to an open discussion. I would suggest you're demonstrating the cognitive fallacy of premature closure. Google it.
ryanb31 wrote:
She was perfectly normal
That's contradictory to the diagnostic criteria for autism which requires symptoms to be present before the age of three - so if she does have a DSM appropriate diagnosis, your hypothesis kind of falls apart by definition. Also, are vaccinations the only, only, ONLY possible temporally associated events? What if she got mercury poisoning from some tuna she ate? What if she had a hypoxic brain injury? Or a meningitis? Or encephalitis? How can anyone, especially you, be sure about your conclusion when you fail to demonstrate that you've properly thought through the alternatives? As for the money argument, don't you think doctors have kids that get autism? Are you suggesting that we would rather have money from drug companies than healthy kids? And that nearly every doctor is complicit in this global deception? Kind of a stretch.
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Since you're not willing to reveal any details
I have several times, just not in messages to you. Since you asked: 1. 12 year old girl who acted and appeared perfectly normal. She had her regular doctors visits and was a healthy girl. She received a shot, I don't remember which one it was, and within days she was a very different person. Within weeks she could not talk anymore and her behavior was very different. She was later diagnosed autistic. 2. A 20 year old man received a shot and developed schizophrenia. He had been quarter back for our high school and was very healthy. Now, he can't even speak straight.
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the diagnostic criteria for autism which requires symptoms to be present before the age of three
Yes, thank you for supporting what I am saying. You all say that autism can't be "caught" and will be shown in infancy yet I give you an example of where it has happened to a 12 year old and you say I must be wrong. You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures. All you do is stare at a piece of paper that says it can't be related to vaccines and yet ignore the monumentally obvious evidence right in front of you.
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your hypothesis kind of falls apart by definition.
On the contrary, yours does because I have seen it happen after 3 years old.
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What if she got mercury poisoning from some tuna she ate?
So, this would appear to me that you are admitting mercury poisoning could cause autism? And you also know some vaccines use mercury which is why you brought this up. So, if you know mercury is in some vaccines and you know mercury can cause autism how in the world can you not put 1 and 1 together. You say it is impossible, yet you admit it is possible. You are right though, I have no proof, other than observation, that the vaccine caused her autism. But what a huge coincidence that after 12 years of healthy life all of the sudden the autism decided to be made manifest just after a vaccine shot. Amazing. And as I pointed out earlier to someone else, all you have to do is google it and you'll see that this is not an isolated incident. Many, many, people make the same claim. How can you ignore that?
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ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for supporting my point. The girl I refer to was 12 years old when this happened. She was perfectly normal and within days of getting a shot she couldn't speak, act, etc, and was then diagnosed autistic. I realize popular studies don't support this,
Far as I can tell medicine wouldn't classify that as autism. But I can suppose that if this happened a while ago that some overly enthusiastic diagnostician came up with that either because autism wasn't well understood (and still isn't) or had no other explanation. But one thing is certain that is so wildly atypical that is isn't even worth addressing.
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wasn't well understood
It was 4 years ago. And if it is not well understood why do you believe the claims that it is impossible to get from vaccines? That just lacks intelligence.
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so wildly atypical
So, clearly you did not read any of the links I posted earlier. Just google it. This is not even close to an isolated incident. Is it still under 1%, ya probably. But even a tenth of 1% of 7 billion people is still a lot of people.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Science. Of course they were wrong but science is often wrong.
No. What is the proof that the Earth is or was flat? How was it proved?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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his definition is the scientific one.
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
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not evident from birth
Do you even know anyone autistic? You are full of it. I have some good friends who have had 2 autistic children and the doctor, not a "lunatic", told them they were autistic.
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A much larger number of people die from not being immunised.
Not in the US.
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the facts,
I'm telling you I have seen it, if you search Google you'll see there are many, many people who make the same claim. We're all lying? Oh, to be as smart as you. If we could all be so lucky.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
Yep. But far, far, far more average people have been wrong in presuming that anecdotal evidence is proof of causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
Not in the US.
Nonsense. Completely and utterly wrong. In 2010 there where 27,000+ DIAGNOSED cases of whooping cough. http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/fast-facts.html[^] On average 20 children die every year from it. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/fs-parents.html[^] The best scientific methods can only attribute a single death associated with vaccination in the years 1990-1992. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Vaccinescause[^]
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ryanb31 wrote:
I have seen it. You can Google all day long and try to pretend like it does not happen, but I have seen it with mine own eyes. Twice.
It was my understanding that your second "example" was schizophrenia. And since you did not provide any specifics I have no way to do any actual research. Other than that...anecdotal evidence is NOT proof of causality. Period. Matter of fact in the world of humans it is almost certain that the VAST majority of anecdotal evidence does not ever represent a casual relationship. I respect your right to believe anything you want. So claim that your religion (personal) is against vaccines and that god himself told you this. Then I support your right to that. But your current belief is NOT scientific. The scientific process has PROVEN that vaccinations do not cause autism. Thus in the one specific case that your related it is a COINCIDENCE. And just to be clear that means the autism would have shown up even if the child had NOT been vaccinated.
ryanb31 wrote:
Get some hard evidence. All you have is research done by the medical industry. No wonder you can't see the truth.
Cow urine. Human urine. Homeopathy. Crystals. And others... All of the above has research that shows "hard" evidence of their medical benefits, but none by the medical industry. So I guess you better start using those.
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And since you did not provide any specifics
I have several times. You must have missed it.
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anecdotal evidence is NOT proof of causality.
I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WAS, SO GET OVER IT. It also does not prove falsely.
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But your current belief is NOT scientific.
Correct. Thank you. Science is proven wrong again and again. I'm glad you can see that I don't use science as my only proof.
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related it is a COINCIDENCE.
That is one amazing coincidence.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Succeeded? Yes, I understood you were trying to make an analogy
Thus it was in fact an analogy.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, if you call that succeeding, you have low expectations of yourself.
Your failure to to accept it has nothing to do with my mental state.
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Thus it was in fact an analogy.
Yes, it was an analogy. So proud of you. It sucked, but it was an analogy. Clearly you were vaccinated because your mental state is somewhere in the stars. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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a relationship by itself is never proof of causality.
I agree. But how would you explain it. If autism is developed during pregnancy then how is it this 12 year old girl I know developed autism all of the sudden after receiving a shot? What a monumental coincidence? All you have is your silly "causality" statement. What caused it then?
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You mean a reputable source that actually is a doctor.
There's an oxymoron. What does cow urine have to do with anything? You claim it can cure cancer yet science still says there is no cure for cancer. So, which is it? Loony claims or science? You are fence-sitting.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I agree. But how would you explain it. If autism is developed during pregnancy then how is it this 12 year old girl I know developed autism all of the sudden after receiving a shot? What a monumental coincidence? All you have is your silly "causality" statement. What caused it then?
Can you find a single report from any other reputable source including news agencies that report anyone else in that age range who started showing symptoms then and received that diagnosis?
ryanb31 wrote:
What does cow urine have to do with anything? You claim it can cure cancer yet science still says there is no cure for cancer. So, which is it? Loony claims or science? You are fence-sitting.
Not at all. I know that cow urine cancer cures have published "studies" which show that it works. None of course are from the "medical industry" but based on your statements on autism that shouldn't matter to you. So it should be just as valid for you. Note also that it cures other things, so maybe you should keep a bottle in the fridge to cure anything you and the family get. For myself it is evident that the "studies" are complete hogwash.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for proving my point. Has science ever been wrong?
Yep. But far, far, far more average people have been wrong in presuming that anecdotal evidence is proof of causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
Not in the US.
Nonsense. Completely and utterly wrong. In 2010 there where 27,000+ DIAGNOSED cases of whooping cough. http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/fast-facts.html[^] On average 20 children die every year from it. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/fs-parents.html[^] The best scientific methods can only attribute a single death associated with vaccination in the years 1990-1992. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Vaccinescause[^]
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On average 20 children die
Is that a lot compared to the rest of the world? So, 27,000 got it and 20 died in the US so the US needs to vaccinate? .07% died in the US. Find out what the survival rate is in other countries.
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The best scientific methods
The CDC? They make the vaccines. Good source. ;P
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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And since you did not provide any specifics
I have several times. You must have missed it.
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anecdotal evidence is NOT proof of causality.
I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WAS, SO GET OVER IT. It also does not prove falsely.
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But your current belief is NOT scientific.
Correct. Thank you. Science is proven wrong again and again. I'm glad you can see that I don't use science as my only proof.
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related it is a COINCIDENCE.
That is one amazing coincidence.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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On average 20 children die
Is that a lot compared to the rest of the world? So, 27,000 got it and 20 died in the US so the US needs to vaccinate? .07% died in the US. Find out what the survival rate is in other countries.
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The best scientific methods
The CDC? They make the vaccines. Good source. ;P
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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wasn't well understood
It was 4 years ago. And if it is not well understood why do you believe the claims that it is impossible to get from vaccines? That just lacks intelligence.
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so wildly atypical
So, clearly you did not read any of the links I posted earlier. Just google it. This is not even close to an isolated incident. Is it still under 1%, ya probably. But even a tenth of 1% of 7 billion people is still a lot of people.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, clearly you did not read any of the links I posted earlier. Just google it. This is not even close to an isolated incident. Is it still under 1%, ya probably. But even a tenth of 1% of 7 billion people is still a lot of people.
Provide a link to a reputable source that show that age group with that diagnosis. Note that I am NOT even requesting a tie to vaccination. Just merely a report that autism is showing up in older children.
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Since you're not willing to reveal any details
I have several times, just not in messages to you. Since you asked: 1. 12 year old girl who acted and appeared perfectly normal. She had her regular doctors visits and was a healthy girl. She received a shot, I don't remember which one it was, and within days she was a very different person. Within weeks she could not talk anymore and her behavior was very different. She was later diagnosed autistic. 2. A 20 year old man received a shot and developed schizophrenia. He had been quarter back for our high school and was very healthy. Now, he can't even speak straight.
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the diagnostic criteria for autism which requires symptoms to be present before the age of three
Yes, thank you for supporting what I am saying. You all say that autism can't be "caught" and will be shown in infancy yet I give you an example of where it has happened to a 12 year old and you say I must be wrong. You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures. All you do is stare at a piece of paper that says it can't be related to vaccines and yet ignore the monumentally obvious evidence right in front of you.
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your hypothesis kind of falls apart by definition.
On the contrary, yours does because I have seen it happen after 3 years old.
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What if she got mercury poisoning from some tuna she ate?
So, this would appear to me that you are admitting mercury poisoning could cause autism? And you also know some vaccines use mercury which is why you brought this up. So, if you know mercury is in some vaccines and you know mercury can cause autism how in the world can you not put 1 and 1 together. You say it is impossible, yet you admit it is possible. You are right though, I have no proof, other than observation, that the vaccine caused her autism. But what a huge coincidence that after 12 years of healthy life all of the sudden the autism decided to be made manifest just after a vaccine shot. Amazing. And as I pointed out earlier to someone else, all you have to do is google it and you'll see that this is not an isolated incident. Many, many, people make the same claim. How can you ignore that?
ryanb31 wrote:
You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures.
Well, this bad experience explains why you have such a vehement distrust of the medical system. It's a rough time to be a parent with a kiddo with an illness and not feel like your concerns and ideas are being heard - or worse, if you get the feeling that what you're telling them isn't being believed. Sorry about your son, hope he's doing okay now.
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It was proved by the science of the day. I don't know about the specifics nor do I care. Clearly they were wrong.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I know this is off topic, but it seems to be at the core of what you are going on about. That isn't the way this stuff works. The Earth is flat cannot be proved because it is false. Once something reaches a level of proof or big T Theory it doesn't get unproved. It can get refined much like the Bohr model of the atom being replaced by the Schrodinger model and then by Quantum Electodynamics, but the Bohr model still makes the same accurate predictions it did when it was created. Something else is that the whole "flat" Earth thing predates the Scientific Method.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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ryanb31 wrote:
You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures.
Well, this bad experience explains why you have such a vehement distrust of the medical system. It's a rough time to be a parent with a kiddo with an illness and not feel like your concerns and ideas are being heard - or worse, if you get the feeling that what you're telling them isn't being believed. Sorry about your son, hope he's doing okay now.
- F
This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Find out what the survival rate is in other countries.
Irrelevant. You are the one that suggested that something was different in the US.
ryanb31 wrote:
The CDC? They make the vaccines. Good source.
The CDC does not make vaccines.
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Irrelevant
How? I stated the US is different than many other countries so find out what the rates are in other countries. Do you know what irrelevant means? CDC. You're right, they just order them and they are the main source for encouraging vaccines. Still a biased source. Even though the CDC is biased, even they admit there can be serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] From the CDC, the DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is. Also, the influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. MMR - permanent brain damage. Varicella- seizure. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death Any more evidence?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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There's no non idiots on offer, especially on issues like this, where the lunatic fringe is most vocal and therefore most pandered to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
So, even though I know there are life-threatening side-effects to vaccines you have asked for evidence. I gave you examples and you rejected them. I gave you google searches and you rejected them. So, after 5 minutes on the CDC site (an extremely biased source for vaccines) here is a list of some of the vaccines with serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. What more evidence do you need?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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There is no association with vaccination. The onset of schizophrenia is classically in the late teens and early 20s. Symptoms of autism (a very different disorder) can become apparent very early but they usually manifest most clearly around age 2. Because of these confounding factors we are left to rely on a HUGE body of information with large epidemiological studies that causally fails to support the hypothesis that vaccinations cause/reveal/exacerbate autism. And I've seen dozens and dozens of schizophrenics and autism spectrum patients so I guess my "personal experience" should trump yours too? But since I'm part of the medical profession I guess I'm the enemy because I would rather kids not get measles encephalitis as a result of avoiding vaccinations based on a faulty premise.
- F
So, even though I know there are life-threatening side-effects to vaccines you have asked for evidence. I gave you examples and you rejected them. I gave you google searches and you rejected them. So, after 5 minutes on the CDC site (an extremely biased source for vaccines) here is a list of some of the vaccines with serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. What more evidence do you need?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything?
Cancers - leukemias (especially kids who have a very chemo-sensitive population of cancer cells), diffuse large B cell lymphomas are very susceptible, skin and other localized cancers (by excision), localized radiation therapy for some cancers is curative Infections - bacterial - antibiotics - of the skin, eyes, mouth, chest, bladder, intraabdominal etc, fungal - antifungals - same sites + more, protozoal infections Surgical repairs of defective tissues - valve replacements, aneurysm repairs, coiling, repair of embryonic heart defects strabismus - eye patching non-healing ulcers - rigorous wound care, properly ordered and applied dressings And lots, lots, more...
ryanb31 wrote:
Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects. Anything that is claimed to have no side effects probably has no actual effect either (other than placebo). It simply doesn't make physiological sense otherwise.
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I know this is off topic, but it seems to be at the core of what you are going on about. That isn't the way this stuff works. The Earth is flat cannot be proved because it is false. Once something reaches a level of proof or big T Theory it doesn't get unproved. It can get refined much like the Bohr model of the atom being replaced by the Schrodinger model and then by Quantum Electodynamics, but the Bohr model still makes the same accurate predictions it did when it was created. Something else is that the whole "flat" Earth thing predates the Scientific Method.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Yes, I understand your point just fine. It was just the first and most obvious example to come to mind. So, I did a quick google search on "when has science been proven wrong" and the first result is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_scientific_laws_or_theories_have_been_proven_wrong[^] There are many other examples. The point is science is ever-changing and learning. Some principles hold true, but others are expanded upon or even shown to be incorrect and incomplete. I just did a quick search on the CDC's site and found that they have evidence that vaccines cause brain disorders. That's what my original point was. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.