Vaccinations
-
Quote:
And since you did not provide any specifics
I have several times. You must have missed it.
Quote:
anecdotal evidence is NOT proof of causality.
I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WAS, SO GET OVER IT. It also does not prove falsely.
Quote:
But your current belief is NOT scientific.
Correct. Thank you. Science is proven wrong again and again. I'm glad you can see that I don't use science as my only proof.
Quote:
related it is a COINCIDENCE.
That is one amazing coincidence.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Quote:
On average 20 children die
Is that a lot compared to the rest of the world? So, 27,000 got it and 20 died in the US so the US needs to vaccinate? .07% died in the US. Find out what the survival rate is in other countries.
Quote:
The best scientific methods
The CDC? They make the vaccines. Good source. ;P
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Quote:
wasn't well understood
It was 4 years ago. And if it is not well understood why do you believe the claims that it is impossible to get from vaccines? That just lacks intelligence.
Quote:
so wildly atypical
So, clearly you did not read any of the links I posted earlier. Just google it. This is not even close to an isolated incident. Is it still under 1%, ya probably. But even a tenth of 1% of 7 billion people is still a lot of people.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, clearly you did not read any of the links I posted earlier. Just google it. This is not even close to an isolated incident. Is it still under 1%, ya probably. But even a tenth of 1% of 7 billion people is still a lot of people.
Provide a link to a reputable source that show that age group with that diagnosis. Note that I am NOT even requesting a tie to vaccination. Just merely a report that autism is showing up in older children.
-
Quote:
Since you're not willing to reveal any details
I have several times, just not in messages to you. Since you asked: 1. 12 year old girl who acted and appeared perfectly normal. She had her regular doctors visits and was a healthy girl. She received a shot, I don't remember which one it was, and within days she was a very different person. Within weeks she could not talk anymore and her behavior was very different. She was later diagnosed autistic. 2. A 20 year old man received a shot and developed schizophrenia. He had been quarter back for our high school and was very healthy. Now, he can't even speak straight.
Quote:
the diagnostic criteria for autism which requires symptoms to be present before the age of three
Yes, thank you for supporting what I am saying. You all say that autism can't be "caught" and will be shown in infancy yet I give you an example of where it has happened to a 12 year old and you say I must be wrong. You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures. All you do is stare at a piece of paper that says it can't be related to vaccines and yet ignore the monumentally obvious evidence right in front of you.
Quote:
your hypothesis kind of falls apart by definition.
On the contrary, yours does because I have seen it happen after 3 years old.
Quote:
What if she got mercury poisoning from some tuna she ate?
So, this would appear to me that you are admitting mercury poisoning could cause autism? And you also know some vaccines use mercury which is why you brought this up. So, if you know mercury is in some vaccines and you know mercury can cause autism how in the world can you not put 1 and 1 together. You say it is impossible, yet you admit it is possible. You are right though, I have no proof, other than observation, that the vaccine caused her autism. But what a huge coincidence that after 12 years of healthy life all of the sudden the autism decided to be made manifest just after a vaccine shot. Amazing. And as I pointed out earlier to someone else, all you have to do is google it and you'll see that this is not an isolated incident. Many, many, people make the same claim. How can you ignore that?
ryanb31 wrote:
You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures.
Well, this bad experience explains why you have such a vehement distrust of the medical system. It's a rough time to be a parent with a kiddo with an illness and not feel like your concerns and ideas are being heard - or worse, if you get the feeling that what you're telling them isn't being believed. Sorry about your son, hope he's doing okay now.
- F
-
It was proved by the science of the day. I don't know about the specifics nor do I care. Clearly they were wrong.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I know this is off topic, but it seems to be at the core of what you are going on about. That isn't the way this stuff works. The Earth is flat cannot be proved because it is false. Once something reaches a level of proof or big T Theory it doesn't get unproved. It can get refined much like the Bohr model of the atom being replaced by the Schrodinger model and then by Quantum Electodynamics, but the Bohr model still makes the same accurate predictions it did when it was created. Something else is that the whole "flat" Earth thing predates the Scientific Method.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
-
ryanb31 wrote:
You remind me of the doctors who ran tests on our 2 year old son because he was having seizures. All of the tests they ran showed he was healthy, yet he was having seizures.
Well, this bad experience explains why you have such a vehement distrust of the medical system. It's a rough time to be a parent with a kiddo with an illness and not feel like your concerns and ideas are being heard - or worse, if you get the feeling that what you're telling them isn't being believed. Sorry about your son, hope he's doing okay now.
- F
This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
ryanb31 wrote:
Find out what the survival rate is in other countries.
Irrelevant. You are the one that suggested that something was different in the US.
ryanb31 wrote:
The CDC? They make the vaccines. Good source.
The CDC does not make vaccines.
Quote:
Irrelevant
How? I stated the US is different than many other countries so find out what the rates are in other countries. Do you know what irrelevant means? CDC. You're right, they just order them and they are the main source for encouraging vaccines. Still a biased source. Even though the CDC is biased, even they admit there can be serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] From the CDC, the DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is. Also, the influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. MMR - permanent brain damage. Varicella- seizure. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death Any more evidence?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
There's no non idiots on offer, especially on issues like this, where the lunatic fringe is most vocal and therefore most pandered to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
So, even though I know there are life-threatening side-effects to vaccines you have asked for evidence. I gave you examples and you rejected them. I gave you google searches and you rejected them. So, after 5 minutes on the CDC site (an extremely biased source for vaccines) here is a list of some of the vaccines with serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. What more evidence do you need?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
There is no association with vaccination. The onset of schizophrenia is classically in the late teens and early 20s. Symptoms of autism (a very different disorder) can become apparent very early but they usually manifest most clearly around age 2. Because of these confounding factors we are left to rely on a HUGE body of information with large epidemiological studies that causally fails to support the hypothesis that vaccinations cause/reveal/exacerbate autism. And I've seen dozens and dozens of schizophrenics and autism spectrum patients so I guess my "personal experience" should trump yours too? But since I'm part of the medical profession I guess I'm the enemy because I would rather kids not get measles encephalitis as a result of avoiding vaccinations based on a faulty premise.
- F
So, even though I know there are life-threatening side-effects to vaccines you have asked for evidence. I gave you examples and you rejected them. I gave you google searches and you rejected them. So, after 5 minutes on the CDC site (an extremely biased source for vaccines) here is a list of some of the vaccines with serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. What more evidence do you need?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything?
Cancers - leukemias (especially kids who have a very chemo-sensitive population of cancer cells), diffuse large B cell lymphomas are very susceptible, skin and other localized cancers (by excision), localized radiation therapy for some cancers is curative Infections - bacterial - antibiotics - of the skin, eyes, mouth, chest, bladder, intraabdominal etc, fungal - antifungals - same sites + more, protozoal infections Surgical repairs of defective tissues - valve replacements, aneurysm repairs, coiling, repair of embryonic heart defects strabismus - eye patching non-healing ulcers - rigorous wound care, properly ordered and applied dressings And lots, lots, more...
ryanb31 wrote:
Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects. Anything that is claimed to have no side effects probably has no actual effect either (other than placebo). It simply doesn't make physiological sense otherwise.
- F
-
I know this is off topic, but it seems to be at the core of what you are going on about. That isn't the way this stuff works. The Earth is flat cannot be proved because it is false. Once something reaches a level of proof or big T Theory it doesn't get unproved. It can get refined much like the Bohr model of the atom being replaced by the Schrodinger model and then by Quantum Electodynamics, but the Bohr model still makes the same accurate predictions it did when it was created. Something else is that the whole "flat" Earth thing predates the Scientific Method.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Yes, I understand your point just fine. It was just the first and most obvious example to come to mind. So, I did a quick google search on "when has science been proven wrong" and the first result is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_scientific_laws_or_theories_have_been_proven_wrong[^] There are many other examples. The point is science is ever-changing and learning. Some principles hold true, but others are expanded upon or even shown to be incorrect and incomplete. I just did a quick search on the CDC's site and found that they have evidence that vaccines cause brain disorders. That's what my original point was. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
So, even though I know there are life-threatening side-effects to vaccines you have asked for evidence. I gave you examples and you rejected them. I gave you google searches and you rejected them. So, after 5 minutes on the CDC site (an extremely biased source for vaccines) here is a list of some of the vaccines with serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. What more evidence do you need?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related.
Not really. It's because they got the vaccination (A), and then something happened (B). Just because B follows A doesn't mean A caused B. For any drug or intervention, every A/B combination that was documented is reported irrespective of plausibility or evidence. The plausibility of causality and discerning the actual evidence that A caused B is a much more complex task.
- F
-
ryanb31 wrote:
They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related.
Not really. It's because they got the vaccination (A), and then something happened (B). Just because B follows A doesn't mean A caused B. For any drug or intervention, every A/B combination that was documented is reported irrespective of plausibility or evidence. The plausibility of causality and discerning the actual evidence that A caused B is a much more complex task.
- F
Yes, but you are focusing in on one single point. Even take that one out and you still have enough evidence. However, they posted it because they know there is a chance. Look at how they word a lot of the other ones. Other ones simply say something generic, like "there may have been other serious side effects..." but in the case I quoted they were specific. Either way, that should be plenty of evidence.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
ryanb31 wrote:
It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything?
Cancers - leukemias (especially kids who have a very chemo-sensitive population of cancer cells), diffuse large B cell lymphomas are very susceptible, skin and other localized cancers (by excision), localized radiation therapy for some cancers is curative Infections - bacterial - antibiotics - of the skin, eyes, mouth, chest, bladder, intraabdominal etc, fungal - antifungals - same sites + more, protozoal infections Surgical repairs of defective tissues - valve replacements, aneurysm repairs, coiling, repair of embryonic heart defects strabismus - eye patching non-healing ulcers - rigorous wound care, properly ordered and applied dressings And lots, lots, more...
ryanb31 wrote:
Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects. Anything that is claimed to have no side effects probably has no actual effect either (other than placebo). It simply doesn't make physiological sense otherwise.
- F
Quote:
Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects.
I'm referring to negative side effects. If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
Quote:
Cancers
Cancers are not cured by doctors. Even the medical industry claims there is no cure for cancer. There are all kinds of "walks to find a cure." Some cancers are destroyed from someones body but that is not a cure. If the person survives the treatment they may not have any cancer left but that is not a cure. Surgical repairs are not cures. I'm talking about diseases and sicknesses.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Yes, but you are focusing in on one single point. Even take that one out and you still have enough evidence. However, they posted it because they know there is a chance. Look at how they word a lot of the other ones. Other ones simply say something generic, like "there may have been other serious side effects..." but in the case I quoted they were specific. Either way, that should be plenty of evidence.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
You need to understand that there is a big difference between "these are problems which have been reported following the vaccine" and "these are things clearly/likely caused by the vaccine" and the site is pretty clear about distinguishing between these. Your assumption that because they are reporting them means there must be some additional evidence beyond the fact that they were temporally related is incorrect.
- F
-
Quote:
Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects.
I'm referring to negative side effects. If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
Quote:
Cancers
Cancers are not cured by doctors. Even the medical industry claims there is no cure for cancer. There are all kinds of "walks to find a cure." Some cancers are destroyed from someones body but that is not a cure. If the person survives the treatment they may not have any cancer left but that is not a cure. Surgical repairs are not cures. I'm talking about diseases and sicknesses.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
You've added calories to your diet which may or may not be negative. You've potentially ingested carcinogens or pesticides on the skin of the apple. You've potentially ingested fungus which if you're immunocompromised may or may not be a big deal. Sure, your body can generally deal with these. But it's not like there's not a downside. I would also argue that you're not necessarily any "healthier" by eating an apple. The determinants of health is a pretty complex topic.
ryanb31 wrote:
Some cancers are destroyed from someones body but that is not a cure.
Cancer, by definition, is a propagation of cells that have lost their ability for self-regulation of growth and apoptosis(self destruction). How is removing or destroying these cells so that they never bother the patient again not a cure? There are thousands of cancers, a few of which we know enough about to do something about them, a few of those are completely curable in that with appropriate intervention they will never bother the patient again. Surgery is a huge part of the domain of medical practice (since some medical specialties treat by both medical and surgical means) so I don't think I'm going to let you move those goalposts without a good reason. Why doesn't surgery count as curative? Why don't antibiotics count as curative?
- F
-
You need to understand that there is a big difference between "these are problems which have been reported following the vaccine" and "these are things clearly/likely caused by the vaccine" and the site is pretty clear about distinguishing between these. Your assumption that because they are reporting them means there must be some additional evidence beyond the fact that they were temporally related is incorrect.
- F
Since you want to focus on just one of them and ignore the rest, here is another statement "Since then, flu vaccines have not been clearly linked to GBS." Which means that prior to this case they were clearly linked.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
ryanb31 wrote:
If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
You've added calories to your diet which may or may not be negative. You've potentially ingested carcinogens or pesticides on the skin of the apple. You've potentially ingested fungus which if you're immunocompromised may or may not be a big deal. Sure, your body can generally deal with these. But it's not like there's not a downside. I would also argue that you're not necessarily any "healthier" by eating an apple. The determinants of health is a pretty complex topic.
ryanb31 wrote:
Some cancers are destroyed from someones body but that is not a cure.
Cancer, by definition, is a propagation of cells that have lost their ability for self-regulation of growth and apoptosis(self destruction). How is removing or destroying these cells so that they never bother the patient again not a cure? There are thousands of cancers, a few of which we know enough about to do something about them, a few of those are completely curable in that with appropriate intervention they will never bother the patient again. Surgery is a huge part of the domain of medical practice (since some medical specialties treat by both medical and surgical means) so I don't think I'm going to let you move those goalposts without a good reason. Why doesn't surgery count as curative? Why don't antibiotics count as curative?
- F
Quote:
You've added calories to your diet
Talk about splitting hairs. So, why does the medical industry claim there is no cure for cancer? By the way, I do know there is and know people that have cured it from eating healthy. But the medical and scientific community do not acknowledge a cure.
Quote:
Why doesn't surgery count as curative
I can lose weight by cutting off my leg. It's an extreme example but cutting something out is not curing it. Ridding maybe, but not curing.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Since you want to focus on just one of them and ignore the rest, here is another statement "Since then, flu vaccines have not been clearly linked to GBS." Which means that prior to this case they were clearly linked.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
Yes, that the 1976 inactivated flu vaccine was pretty clearly linked with GBS. The new ones are not. I don't understand what your point is?
- F