Vaccinations
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[science] admits it can be wrong
Again, you state that science can be wrong. Then you deny you say that.
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I asked you for a link to credible research, and defined what I mean by that, and said I would read it.
You must be getting your messages mixed up because you haven't done this. I did provide a search which provided lots of links. If I gave you a link that proved my point would you change your mind? No, of course you wouldn't. You are not interested in changing your mind because you would have to admit you were wrong. So, what's the point in me providing links to you that you will discredit anyway? I have lots of links, if you won't read them don't try to blame me.
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You're jumping from topic to topic,
No, I brought up religion as a comparison to what your original post was about. You are mad at people that believe differently than you. That's your point, in simple form. I simply stated that there are tons of people in this world mad at you for your beliefs as well. Just showing you that it is not one-sided.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Again, you state that science can be wrong. Then you deny you say that.
No, you just mischaracterised what I said. I said it can be wrong. That's not a good reason to reject it. Your parents can be wrong. Should you then ignore everything they say ?
ryanb31 wrote:
You must be getting your messages mixed up because you haven't done this.
No, I did. You're just not reading what I say. I said if you can provide a link to research that is peer reviewed and that shows an increased risk of autism for kids that are vaccinated, then I will read it.
ryanb31 wrote:
I did provide a search which provided lots of links.
Yes, and I clicked it. I am not wading through pages of pseudo science. Give me one link that you think best proves your case.
ryanb31 wrote:
If I gave you a link that proved my point would you change your mind? No, of course you wouldn't.
Again, this is how science works. I change my mind all the time. I've recently changed my mind on climate change. I wrote about it in here, actually. If I don't change my mind immediately, it will be b/c I want to discuss, and if you understand and can discuss, then I might, depending on the evidence.
ryanb31 wrote:
because you would have to admit you were wrong.
Again, what you don't get is that what is to be admired about science is that it seeks to admit when it is wrong. I would do that, if you could offer real proof.
ryanb31 wrote:
You are mad at people that believe differently than you. That's your point, in simple form.
Not at all. I am mad at people who are deliberately ignorant and bring harm to society. Did you read my link about 9 babies dying because of the drop in vaccinations ? Dead babies upset me.
ryanb31 wrote:
I simply stated that there are tons of people in this world mad at you for your beliefs as well. Just showing you that it is not one-sided.
Making it about beliefs is very PC, but it ignores that there are facts, as well as beliefs. I am not mad at people who don't believe in God, or who have a different view of Him. That's actually a belief, although I think it's back
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you accused me of not knowing anything about autism.
Not true. I am not sure if you are intentionally trying to incite something or if something I said honestly made you think that. You don't know enough about it, that is true. But I did not say you knew nothing about it. And, you have yet proven anything I said to be wrong. Your opinion is not proof.
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when you accused me of raising heathen children.
Give me a break. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're wasting my time. I never said this. Don't add to what I say.
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A focus group paid for by wine sellers found this.
Thank you for agreeing with me. Why don't you dig a little bit more to see who is paying for your so-called scientific studies. Find one and then dig more.
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your ignorance of what I said and what science is,
What part am I wrong about? I can go back and get your quotes.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I am not sure if you are intentionally trying to incite something or if something I said honestly made you think that.
Your strategy of flooding me leaves me without time to go back and find it, but you did indeed tell me I didn't know what I was talking about re: autism. But, you indicated that you had experience and I did not. \ Here[^] - 'do you even know anyone autistic ? you are full of it'. That's what you said.
ryanb31 wrote:
Your opinion is not proof.
Nor is yours. But I have an opinion about science and you have an opinion about random unproven theories of causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
I never said this. Don't add to what I say
Here[^] is where you said 'I could also come after you for not teaching your children proper principles about God. In my point of view, you are damaging your children and doing them harm. But, I know you are trying to do the best you can with what knowledge you have so I don't judge you.', a gross assumption that is false and that plainly says you thought I was raising heathen children ( children who do not know about God ). Are you not accustomed to people who are willing to make you take responsibility for what you say ?
ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for agreeing with me. Why don't you dig a little bit more to see who is paying for your so-called scientific studies. Find one and then dig more.
Gee - I didn't see that one coming. But, until the anti vaccination group does open studies, which allow peer review, they have no studies at all, just wild assumptions. I would agree that it would be ideal for government to pay for more science than they do nowadays.
ryanb31 wrote:
What part am I wrong about? I can go back and get your quotes.
you should. Science is an ongoing process of learning. As such, it moves forward when we realise that we got something wrong, and c
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I know this is off topic, but it seems to be at the core of what you are going on about. That isn't the way this stuff works. The Earth is flat cannot be proved because it is false. Once something reaches a level of proof or big T Theory it doesn't get unproved. It can get refined much like the Bohr model of the atom being replaced by the Schrodinger model and then by Quantum Electodynamics, but the Bohr model still makes the same accurate predictions it did when it was created. Something else is that the whole "flat" Earth thing predates the Scientific Method.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
Thank you. This DOES cut to the heart of things. The flat earth was like the autism hypothesis. Non scientific, just a guess based on the processing of incomplete data through wrong assumptions.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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It was proved by the science of the day. I don't know about the specifics nor do I care. Clearly they were wrong.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
This gets to the heart of the issue. It was 'proven' by - 'look, the earth near me is flat, so the whole earth must be', which is not science. It's the same process by which we get 'my friend's child who had a vaccination was diagnosed with autism, therefore the vaccination caused it'.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ryanb31 wrote:
Again, you state that science can be wrong. Then you deny you say that.
No, you just mischaracterised what I said. I said it can be wrong. That's not a good reason to reject it. Your parents can be wrong. Should you then ignore everything they say ?
ryanb31 wrote:
You must be getting your messages mixed up because you haven't done this.
No, I did. You're just not reading what I say. I said if you can provide a link to research that is peer reviewed and that shows an increased risk of autism for kids that are vaccinated, then I will read it.
ryanb31 wrote:
I did provide a search which provided lots of links.
Yes, and I clicked it. I am not wading through pages of pseudo science. Give me one link that you think best proves your case.
ryanb31 wrote:
If I gave you a link that proved my point would you change your mind? No, of course you wouldn't.
Again, this is how science works. I change my mind all the time. I've recently changed my mind on climate change. I wrote about it in here, actually. If I don't change my mind immediately, it will be b/c I want to discuss, and if you understand and can discuss, then I might, depending on the evidence.
ryanb31 wrote:
because you would have to admit you were wrong.
Again, what you don't get is that what is to be admired about science is that it seeks to admit when it is wrong. I would do that, if you could offer real proof.
ryanb31 wrote:
You are mad at people that believe differently than you. That's your point, in simple form.
Not at all. I am mad at people who are deliberately ignorant and bring harm to society. Did you read my link about 9 babies dying because of the drop in vaccinations ? Dead babies upset me.
ryanb31 wrote:
I simply stated that there are tons of people in this world mad at you for your beliefs as well. Just showing you that it is not one-sided.
Making it about beliefs is very PC, but it ignores that there are facts, as well as beliefs. I am not mad at people who don't believe in God, or who have a different view of Him. That's actually a belief, although I think it's back
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I said it can be wrong.
As I said, you know science can be wrong. That's all I said.
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That's not a good reason to reject it.
Correct. But it's a wonderful reason not to use that as your only source.
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deliberately ignorant
oxymoron.
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Did you read my link about 9 babies dying because of the drop in vaccinations ?
"correlation is not causality" How does that feel? You can't blame unvaccinated for their deaths. Come on. You have got to be kidding me. Are you being deliberately ignorant?
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that there are facts
Yes, which you continue to ignore. You only accept facts that are proven by "science" which you admit is fallible.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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ryanb31 wrote:
I am not sure if you are intentionally trying to incite something or if something I said honestly made you think that.
Your strategy of flooding me leaves me without time to go back and find it, but you did indeed tell me I didn't know what I was talking about re: autism. But, you indicated that you had experience and I did not. \ Here[^] - 'do you even know anyone autistic ? you are full of it'. That's what you said.
ryanb31 wrote:
Your opinion is not proof.
Nor is yours. But I have an opinion about science and you have an opinion about random unproven theories of causality.
ryanb31 wrote:
I never said this. Don't add to what I say
Here[^] is where you said 'I could also come after you for not teaching your children proper principles about God. In my point of view, you are damaging your children and doing them harm. But, I know you are trying to do the best you can with what knowledge you have so I don't judge you.', a gross assumption that is false and that plainly says you thought I was raising heathen children ( children who do not know about God ). Are you not accustomed to people who are willing to make you take responsibility for what you say ?
ryanb31 wrote:
Thank you for agreeing with me. Why don't you dig a little bit more to see who is paying for your so-called scientific studies. Find one and then dig more.
Gee - I didn't see that one coming. But, until the anti vaccination group does open studies, which allow peer review, they have no studies at all, just wild assumptions. I would agree that it would be ideal for government to pay for more science than they do nowadays.
ryanb31 wrote:
What part am I wrong about? I can go back and get your quotes.
you should. Science is an ongoing process of learning. As such, it moves forward when we realise that we got something wrong, and c
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strategy of flooding me
How old are you?
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'do you even know anyone autistic ? you are full of it'
Yes, I asked if you knew anyone autistic. So, instead of answering you got offended because you heard "you don't know anything about autism" which is not what I said. No wonder we can never make progress. You change what I say. Why do I even bother responding because you'll just change it.
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Nor is yours.
Never claimed that it was.
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random unproven theories of causality.
Ya, like 9 babies dying from the unvaccinated people. Really, how'd they prove that one? You keep spitting out causality and then you use it? So weak.
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'I could also come after you for not teaching your children proper principles about God. In my point of view, you are damaging your children and doing them harm. But, I know you are trying to do the best you can with what knowledge you have so I don't judge you.'
Thank you for another perfect example of how you twist what I said. Heathen at dictionary.com[^]Someone who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. Really, that is what you heard me say? I even complimented you saying that you are doing the best you can. Can you stop adding to and twisting what I say? I would enjoy a conversation with you but it is near impossible when you keep changing what I say.
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Gee - I didn't see that one coming.
Sooooo, I guess you won't?
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keep an open mind to new ideas,
Really? This is advice coming from you? Wow.
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If you have one real, scientific study
I gave you a link to the CDC's website, the US's national agency that most encourages vaccines. They are the ones who order the vaccines and tell the people which ones to get. And THEY did studies and found that vaccines cause brain damage. What more evidence do you want? Seriously? The very makers of vaccines admit it can cause brain damage and you're crying for a "scient
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This gets to the heart of the issue. It was 'proven' by - 'look, the earth near me is flat, so the whole earth must be', which is not science. It's the same process by which we get 'my friend's child who had a vaccination was diagnosed with autism, therefore the vaccination caused it'.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Thank you for the example of causality, because up until now, I didn't know what it was. ;P The same thing happened with gravity. Newton first thought it was constant everywhere. He did the best he could with the science he had. But he was wrong. Does that mean we should not listen to anything science says? Of course not, science is great. BUT IT DOES NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. You say you understand that, but you don't get it. You continue to admit that science CAN be wrong and I give you evidence that shows that vaccines can cause brain damage and you are so narrow-minded and stubborn that you can't see what is right in front of your face.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Yes, I understand your point just fine. It was just the first and most obvious example to come to mind. So, I did a quick google search on "when has science been proven wrong" and the first result is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_scientific_laws_or_theories_have_been_proven_wrong[^] There are many other examples. The point is science is ever-changing and learning. Some principles hold true, but others are expanded upon or even shown to be incorrect and incomplete. I just did a quick search on the CDC's site and found that they have evidence that vaccines cause brain disorders. That's what my original point was. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
It does when you compare them to the risks of not vaccinating and take into account that it impacts not only your family but your community, but we are right back where we started with this conversation. Also, with that list of "laws or theories" they are all ancient history other than Newton's theories and they are both still useful under the conditions where they apply. If you accept that page, I see you learned that flat Earth was never a theory.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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ryanb31 wrote:
The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
It does when you compare them to the risks of not vaccinating and take into account that it impacts not only your family but your community, but we are right back where we started with this conversation. Also, with that list of "laws or theories" they are all ancient history other than Newton's theories and they are both still useful under the conditions where they apply. If you accept that page, I see you learned that flat Earth was never a theory.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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they are all ancient history
And 200 years from now, many of our current science will be too.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yes, but none of the results of our experiments are going to change. New theories have to match or beat existing theories in their ability to explain. None of those ancient theories had that level of experimental support.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Smallpox[^] Seriously, just look up these diseases on wikipedia and compare the pre and post vaccine state of affairs, and we are close to eliminating polio[^] completely.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Yes, but none of the results of our experiments are going to change. New theories have to match or beat existing theories in their ability to explain. None of those ancient theories had that level of experimental support.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
OK, let's get right to the point then. The issue is about vaccines. The CDC website says they have been proven to cause brain damage. So, why is someone crazy for not wanting to put their child at that risk?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Smallpox[^] Seriously, just look up these diseases on wikipedia and compare the pre and post vaccine state of affairs, and we are close to eliminating polio[^] completely.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
I never said vaccines were bad or that we should eliminate them. All I am saying is someone who decides not to put their child at risk of brain disorder or even death is not a loony.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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OK, let's get right to the point then. The issue is about vaccines. The CDC website says they have been proven to cause brain damage. So, why is someone crazy for not wanting to put their child at that risk?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Taken in isolation like it seems crazy that you would vaccinate. However, not vaccinating and contracting the disease causes more brain damage, and it also increases the chance that others will suffer. There are benefits and risks with both choices.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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I never said vaccines were bad or that we should eliminate them. All I am saying is someone who decides not to put their child at risk of brain disorder or even death is not a loony.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Did you look at the side effects of polio?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Did you look at the side effects of polio?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Yes, and?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine? You also choose to piss all over the opportunity our species has to eliminate a horrible plague because of something that unlikely when you take much greater risks all the time every day and don't even bat an eye?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine? You also choose to piss all over the opportunity our species has to eliminate a horrible plague because of something that unlikely when you take much greater risks all the time every day and don't even bat an eye?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yeah things are a little charged over this topic because of people that are skipping polio and whooping cough vaccines and children are dying.
ryanb31 wrote:
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler.
It is an emotional statement, but I don't think a junior high kid would use that phrase.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
I don't view it quite that morbidly. My aunt has been bed ridden since 1980 because of a car accident. I know a family who's teenage son was paralyzed diving into a swimming pool. I've had classmates killed by guns and several by cars. Everyone dies and gets injured. There are risks and side effects to everything. I'd like to compare the rate of choking deaths to vaccines, eating might even have comparable risks. I'll bring up the opposite emotional question how would you feel if your unvaccinated child gave a fatal case of whooping cough to their infant sister or a neighbor's child. Would you feel responsible?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
I'd also add, that I would probably feel a lot worse about an injury my child suffered while I was behind the wheel.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D