Vaccinations
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This gets to the heart of the issue. It was 'proven' by - 'look, the earth near me is flat, so the whole earth must be', which is not science. It's the same process by which we get 'my friend's child who had a vaccination was diagnosed with autism, therefore the vaccination caused it'.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Thank you for the example of causality, because up until now, I didn't know what it was. ;P The same thing happened with gravity. Newton first thought it was constant everywhere. He did the best he could with the science he had. But he was wrong. Does that mean we should not listen to anything science says? Of course not, science is great. BUT IT DOES NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. You say you understand that, but you don't get it. You continue to admit that science CAN be wrong and I give you evidence that shows that vaccines can cause brain damage and you are so narrow-minded and stubborn that you can't see what is right in front of your face.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Yes, I understand your point just fine. It was just the first and most obvious example to come to mind. So, I did a quick google search on "when has science been proven wrong" and the first result is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_scientific_laws_or_theories_have_been_proven_wrong[^] There are many other examples. The point is science is ever-changing and learning. Some principles hold true, but others are expanded upon or even shown to be incorrect and incomplete. I just did a quick search on the CDC's site and found that they have evidence that vaccines cause brain disorders. That's what my original point was. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] 1. DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is related. 2. influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. 3. MMR - permanent brain damage. 4. Varicella- seizure. 5. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
It does when you compare them to the risks of not vaccinating and take into account that it impacts not only your family but your community, but we are right back where we started with this conversation. Also, with that list of "laws or theories" they are all ancient history other than Newton's theories and they are both still useful under the conditions where they apply. If you accept that page, I see you learned that flat Earth was never a theory.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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ryanb31 wrote:
The point of the origial OP was that people who choose not to vaccinate are "loonies." Even though these risks are low, they are still risks. Doesn't seem loony to me.
It does when you compare them to the risks of not vaccinating and take into account that it impacts not only your family but your community, but we are right back where we started with this conversation. Also, with that list of "laws or theories" they are all ancient history other than Newton's theories and they are both still useful under the conditions where they apply. If you accept that page, I see you learned that flat Earth was never a theory.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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they are all ancient history
And 200 years from now, many of our current science will be too.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yes, but none of the results of our experiments are going to change. New theories have to match or beat existing theories in their ability to explain. None of those ancient theories had that level of experimental support.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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This was only the beginning. There were other incidents where we finally gave up on doctors. If I am in a car accident and bleeding to death, I would be very grateful for a doctor but as for my health, no way. It's a rhetorical question but has a doctor ever cured anything? Is there any medicine that does not have potential side effects?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Smallpox[^] Seriously, just look up these diseases on wikipedia and compare the pre and post vaccine state of affairs, and we are close to eliminating polio[^] completely.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Smallpox[^] Seriously, just look up these diseases on wikipedia and compare the pre and post vaccine state of affairs, and we are close to eliminating polio[^] completely.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
I never said vaccines were bad or that we should eliminate them. All I am saying is someone who decides not to put their child at risk of brain disorder or even death is not a loony.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Yes, but none of the results of our experiments are going to change. New theories have to match or beat existing theories in their ability to explain. None of those ancient theories had that level of experimental support.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
OK, let's get right to the point then. The issue is about vaccines. The CDC website says they have been proven to cause brain damage. So, why is someone crazy for not wanting to put their child at that risk?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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OK, let's get right to the point then. The issue is about vaccines. The CDC website says they have been proven to cause brain damage. So, why is someone crazy for not wanting to put their child at that risk?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Taken in isolation like it seems crazy that you would vaccinate. However, not vaccinating and contracting the disease causes more brain damage, and it also increases the chance that others will suffer. There are benefits and risks with both choices.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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I never said vaccines were bad or that we should eliminate them. All I am saying is someone who decides not to put their child at risk of brain disorder or even death is not a loony.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Did you look at the side effects of polio?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Did you look at the side effects of polio?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Yes, and?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine? You also choose to piss all over the opportunity our species has to eliminate a horrible plague because of something that unlikely when you take much greater risks all the time every day and don't even bat an eye?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine? You also choose to piss all over the opportunity our species has to eliminate a horrible plague because of something that unlikely when you take much greater risks all the time every day and don't even bat an eye?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yeah things are a little charged over this topic because of people that are skipping polio and whooping cough vaccines and children are dying.
ryanb31 wrote:
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler.
It is an emotional statement, but I don't think a junior high kid would use that phrase.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
I don't view it quite that morbidly. My aunt has been bed ridden since 1980 because of a car accident. I know a family who's teenage son was paralyzed diving into a swimming pool. I've had classmates killed by guns and several by cars. Everyone dies and gets injured. There are risks and side effects to everything. I'd like to compare the rate of choking deaths to vaccines, eating might even have comparable risks. I'll bring up the opposite emotional question how would you feel if your unvaccinated child gave a fatal case of whooping cough to their infant sister or a neighbor's child. Would you feel responsible?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
I'd also add, that I would probably feel a lot worse about an injury my child suffered while I was behind the wheel.
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Yeah things are a little charged over this topic because of people that are skipping polio and whooping cough vaccines and children are dying.
ryanb31 wrote:
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler.
It is an emotional statement, but I don't think a junior high kid would use that phrase.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
I don't view it quite that morbidly. My aunt has been bed ridden since 1980 because of a car accident. I know a family who's teenage son was paralyzed diving into a swimming pool. I've had classmates killed by guns and several by cars. Everyone dies and gets injured. There are risks and side effects to everything. I'd like to compare the rate of choking deaths to vaccines, eating might even have comparable risks. I'll bring up the opposite emotional question how would you feel if your unvaccinated child gave a fatal case of whooping cough to their infant sister or a neighbor's child. Would you feel responsible?
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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Anything that has an effect will have potential side effects.
I'm referring to negative side effects. If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
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Cancers
Cancers are not cured by doctors. Even the medical industry claims there is no cure for cancer. There are all kinds of "walks to find a cure." Some cancers are destroyed from someones body but that is not a cure. If the person survives the treatment they may not have any cancer left but that is not a cure. Surgical repairs are not cures. I'm talking about diseases and sicknesses.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
If I eat an apple I am healthier with no negative side effects.
Yep. You don't have any. Because most people don't. Some however do. And it can occur suddenly. http://bodyodd.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/10/12/8276488-when-an-apple-allergy-suddenly-appears?lite[^] Same as the vast number of people who are vaccinated have no problems. And side by side risk analysis suggests that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations. Just as eating is better than not eating (because every food has someone that is allergic to it.
ryanb31 wrote:
Cancers are not cured by doctors.
I think that is a valid point. However more people are alive because of the treatments they received from doctors. They wouldn't be alive if they had decided that there was no real cure so they were just going to stay home.
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So you choose risk of polio over the risk of the vaccine?
I didn't say that. I have been talking about vaccines in general. There is a good argument for vaccinating for polio. I don't think anyone is crazy if they choose not to. But what about the flu vaccine? I've had the flu a few times, so what? I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate. My point is, neither side is crazy.
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You also choose to piss all over the opportunity
Sounds like an emotional statement from a junior high schooler. So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate.
I suspect that you might care if you caught the flu or your neighbor did and then your 18 month old baby died from it. Or your 90 year old grandmother. Or if you took either of them to the doctor and the doctor took the same view as you. And so they died.
ryanb31 wrote:
or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine
I doubt that there is any medical evidence to the support that claim.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
Specious. Parents always blame themselves for a death. They also attempt to find someone or something else to blame as well. And there have been wide spread scares propagated by that very need.
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ryanb31 wrote:
I don't care if you do or don't vaccinate.
I suspect that you might care if you caught the flu or your neighbor did and then your 18 month old baby died from it. Or your 90 year old grandmother. Or if you took either of them to the doctor and the doctor took the same view as you. And so they died.
ryanb31 wrote:
or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine
I doubt that there is any medical evidence to the support that claim.
ryanb31 wrote:
So, I suppose if your child was one of the few who dies or got a brain tumor from a polio vaccine, you would feel honored and proud because you are doing your part for society? A small sacrifice for society.
Specious. Parents always blame themselves for a death. They also attempt to find someone or something else to blame as well. And there have been wide spread scares propagated by that very need.
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your 18 month old baby died from it
That would be tragic. However, there are natural cures for the flu and I would rather take that small risk and cure the flu naturally then take the small risk of developing a brain disorder, which may not have any cure.
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took either of them to the doctor
Hah!! That will be the day. Haven't been to the doctor in many, many years, and never plan to. They don't fix anything. Actually, the last time I went to a doctor many years ago I caught the flu! Cesspool of nastiness.
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I doubt that there is any medical evidence to the support that claim.
I already showed you, and you ignored it. The CDC admits they can cause brain damage.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Irrelevant
How? I stated the US is different than many other countries so find out what the rates are in other countries. Do you know what irrelevant means? CDC. You're right, they just order them and they are the main source for encouraging vaccines. Still a biased source. Even though the CDC is biased, even they admit there can be serious side effects. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[^] From the CDC, the DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is. Also, the influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS. MMR - permanent brain damage. Varicella- seizure. Yellow Fever - organ failure - death Any more evidence?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
From the CDC, the DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is.
Your statement is false. They post it because they want to disclose what they do know. And what they do know is "These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine."
ryanb31 wrote:
Also, the influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS.
Specious. The last is a condition that occurred in the 70s and has not occurred since.
ryanb31 wrote:
MMR - permanent brain damage.
Varicella- seizure.
Yellow Fever - organ failure - deathSpecious. And cherry picking. MMR - again the occurrence is so low that they are not sure that there is an association. Varicella - again the occurrence is so low that they are not sure that there is an association. Yellow Fever - Utter and complete nonsense. The mortality rate for yellow fever starts at 3% and can get as high as 50%. And survivors run some risk of liver damage. Not to mention of course that this vaccination has nothing to do with the US.
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ryanb31 wrote:
From the CDC, the DTaP vaccine can cause long-term seizures, coma, or permanent brain damage. They claim they aren't sure it was caused by the vaccine but why post it? Because there is good evidence it is.
Your statement is false. They post it because they want to disclose what they do know. And what they do know is "These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine."
ryanb31 wrote:
Also, the influenza vaccine has caused life-threatening allergic reactions and even GBS.
Specious. The last is a condition that occurred in the 70s and has not occurred since.
ryanb31 wrote:
MMR - permanent brain damage.
Varicella- seizure.
Yellow Fever - organ failure - deathSpecious. And cherry picking. MMR - again the occurrence is so low that they are not sure that there is an association. Varicella - again the occurrence is so low that they are not sure that there is an association. Yellow Fever - Utter and complete nonsense. The mortality rate for yellow fever starts at 3% and can get as high as 50%. And survivors run some risk of liver damage. Not to mention of course that this vaccination has nothing to do with the US.
Nice try. "But the risk of a vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely low." That is what the CDC says. They don't say it is impossible, which is what most of the responses to my messages have been. I have never argued against getting vaccines. There may be a great reason to vaccinate against yellow fever or polio. My point all along is there is risk of serious brain damage with vaccinations so someone who chooses not to do it is not crazy. Both sides have a valid argument.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.