Am I Being Bullied by Microsoft
-
F# is a different case than C#/VB.NET. It serves a different function (no pun intended) than C# and VB.NET. The issue with VB.NET and C# is that they are both doing the same job the same basic way. The only reason there are two languages is because people on VB6 needed a less jarring way to get into the .NET languages. F# allows for rapid prototyping and lightning fast programs for very specific purposes. That is much different than the broader C#.
I am an electronics guy who get lumbered with writing windows front ends for some of our products & test suites for others. I came to Vis Studio 6 as no one else had time to do it. I wanted a Turbo C++ with Windows, but had to use VB6, then got bitten by the awful beta version of .NET that battled with 6, hid in a corner looking at spectrum analyzer for a year or two, came back to PC to find .NET1.1 with C# ( I was a little confused by how MsgBox"" had turned in MessageBox.Show() in VB.NET) , not looked back since really. Is F# designed for Networking, Data Bases or another really odd use as I was under the impression that specialist languages were dead (or dying, a friend uses some specialist language for updating satellites) Glenn
-
I am an electronics guy who get lumbered with writing windows front ends for some of our products & test suites for others. I came to Vis Studio 6 as no one else had time to do it. I wanted a Turbo C++ with Windows, but had to use VB6, then got bitten by the awful beta version of .NET that battled with 6, hid in a corner looking at spectrum analyzer for a year or two, came back to PC to find .NET1.1 with C# ( I was a little confused by how MsgBox"" had turned in MessageBox.Show() in VB.NET) , not looked back since really. Is F# designed for Networking, Data Bases or another really odd use as I was under the impression that specialist languages were dead (or dying, a friend uses some specialist language for updating satellites) Glenn
I'm not convinced of the long-term viability of F# yet but I wouldn't say it is necessarily doomed either. I think it will float around in the background for a while (as it already has). F# is primarily a rapid prototyping language. The idea is that you can quickly bang out a test application in F# to verify your logic. You can even integrate it into your existing C# application to see how it will work in your overall app. Some people have used it for other purposes because of its low overhead in certain circumstances, but those are niche solutions. You aren't going to develop whole applications in F# in the future (at least you shouldn't IMO).
-
lewax00 wrote:
Go write your next large multi-platform GUI-based program in machine code
You lose. I already did that when I was 12 years old, but minus the GUI part. Was not really hard because no two self-built computers were alike. We used something like a simple virtual machine for that. Or we compensated the lack of any OS by using FORTH, gaining most of the benefits of the oh so modern functional languages and even multitasking. My buddy, who got me to build a computer in the first place, later built himself a graphics card and also wrote a GUI as soon as he got hold of a mouse. Must have been around 1982. Where did he get that mouse from? But ok, go on with the 'new' tools, but take care not to become a tool yourself :)
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
CDP1802 wrote:
we compensated the lack of any OS by using FORTH, gaining most of the benefits of the oh so modern functional languages and even multitasking.
My man! FORTH - the one true language! I modified LMI's 32 bit FORTH multitasker to support priority and debugging. I used to compile 300K programs in 30 seconds on a 12 MHz 386. The "C" geeks that followed my project needed 100 MHz machines and 20+ minutes for just the communications software they wanted to run on the mult-tasking OS instead of multi-tasking the language.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
-
I'm not convinced of the long-term viability of F# yet but I wouldn't say it is necessarily doomed either. I think it will float around in the background for a while (as it already has). F# is primarily a rapid prototyping language. The idea is that you can quickly bang out a test application in F# to verify your logic. You can even integrate it into your existing C# application to see how it will work in your overall app. Some people have used it for other purposes because of its low overhead in certain circumstances, but those are niche solutions. You aren't going to develop whole applications in F# in the future (at least you shouldn't IMO).
"
Quote:
F# is primarily a rapid prototyping language. The idea is that you can quickly bang out a test application in F# to verify your logic....
Hmmm, that's what VB6 became you got exe tested it did what you though sent it out and generated :mad: users! Why can I see F# taking this role as a Friday afternoon been to the pub at lunch time just need to do this one thing...
Quote:
You aren't going to develop whole applications in F# in the future (at least you shouldn't IMO).
Why can I see the boards filling up with "Can I Haz code Pleeze for xxx in F#" and so the VB wars begin this time F#. Or am I being cynical? Glenn
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
You're not being bullied, you're just suffering from a problem endemic to proprietary software: your fortunes are at the whim of your vendor. If a product isn't making the vendor enough money, it can be suddenly terminated. For this reason I've always found it very risky to support any development technology that is proprietary regardless of the vendor. The risk of having to rewrite everything on the event of product termination is far too high. I prefer languages that are either covered by an industry standard or are open source. With regard to Microsoft tools, the CLI (Common Language Infrastructure), C#, and C++/CLI are standardized by ECMA. C and C++ are standardized, formerly by ANSI, now by ISO. (One caveat, I believe Microsoft has stopped keeping C fully up to date with the standard.) Because these ones are covered by industry standards bodies, these are the only Microsoft development tools I would consider completely safe to use, which more or less echoes the recommendations of others for different reasons. This isn't really a matter of "better/fewer problems" but proprietary or non-proprietary. My advice is, steer clear of proprietary.
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
Here is what I have as a general rule that proved to be working over the years: Never EVER waste time on a technology that originated within Microsoft and is not something they adopted from someone else. Examples: "Visual Basic, Silverlight, Sharepoint (Frontpage) :) " etc.
-
"
Quote:
F# is primarily a rapid prototyping language. The idea is that you can quickly bang out a test application in F# to verify your logic....
Hmmm, that's what VB6 became you got exe tested it did what you though sent it out and generated :mad: users! Why can I see F# taking this role as a Friday afternoon been to the pub at lunch time just need to do this one thing...
Quote:
You aren't going to develop whole applications in F# in the future (at least you shouldn't IMO).
Why can I see the boards filling up with "Can I Haz code Pleeze for xxx in F#" and so the VB wars begin this time F#. Or am I being cynical? Glenn
You are only being cynical if you are wrong. :) There will be a lot of abuse of F#, especially since I don't think it is clear what it is designed for or how it should be used. One of the biggest cringe-worthy statements I heard one (MS-affiliated) person say that another benefit of F# prototypes working with C# applications is that you can make your prototype operational in production if you don't have the time to do it in C#. That made me twitch. Now we are going to get these ugly hybrid applications running out there that are a nightmare to debug (worse than the usual bad code and poor logic). In the end, though, poor programmers are going to find a way to do things poorly.
-
You are only being cynical if you are wrong. :) There will be a lot of abuse of F#, especially since I don't think it is clear what it is designed for or how it should be used. One of the biggest cringe-worthy statements I heard one (MS-affiliated) person say that another benefit of F# prototypes working with C# applications is that you can make your prototype operational in production if you don't have the time to do it in C#. That made me twitch. Now we are going to get these ugly hybrid applications running out there that are a nightmare to debug (worse than the usual bad code and poor logic). In the end, though, poor programmers are going to find a way to do things poorly.
Ahh Well, to quote BattleStar Galactica "It's all happen before, it will happen again", or a song I can't remember the artist at the moment "Nothin' change but the date!" get the tin hats ready for the VB wars again! :)
-
CDP1802 wrote:
we compensated the lack of any OS by using FORTH, gaining most of the benefits of the oh so modern functional languages and even multitasking.
My man! FORTH - the one true language! I modified LMI's 32 bit FORTH multitasker to support priority and debugging. I used to compile 300K programs in 30 seconds on a 12 MHz 386. The "C" geeks that followed my project needed 100 MHz machines and 20+ minutes for just the communications software they wanted to run on the mult-tasking OS instead of multi-tasking the language.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
FORTH is great, especially on small systems. It is everything, the OS, an interpreter, a compiler and applications at once, yet the FORTH core was only something between 256 and 512 bytes. The rest was word definitions on top of that. And it seems like the little CDP1802 processor was just made for FORTH. It had no designated stack pointer register. Instead, you could designate any of its 16 working registers as stack pointer. One register was needed as program counter, two for interrupts and DMA, so we could hold 13 different contexts in the CPU and just switch the stack pointer in an interrupt routine.
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
-
FORTH is great, especially on small systems. It is everything, the OS, an interpreter, a compiler and applications at once, yet the FORTH core was only something between 256 and 512 bytes. The rest was word definitions on top of that. And it seems like the little CDP1802 processor was just made for FORTH. It had no designated stack pointer register. Instead, you could designate any of its 16 working registers as stack pointer. One register was needed as program counter, two for interrupts and DMA, so we could hold 13 different contexts in the CPU and just switch the stack pointer in an interrupt routine.
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
I started in TERSE, an inhouse FORTH variant I used to program the Biorhythm cartridge for the Bally Home Arcade. Ultimately it was Z-80 machine code, but I programmed an interface between the system core code and the TERSE development environment. I was able to code in the high level FORTH-like language for prototyping purposes and then replace verb by verb to low level assembler (using FORTH verbs for assembly). I later rewrote a FIG-Forth for the Apple II's 6502 processor so I could do "platform neutral" development for the software publisher I was working for at the time. The plan had been to make Atari, Coleco, and IBM versions to create common core software with the presentation side customized for the deployed environment, avoiding a least common denominator system. I later did computer controlled conveyors using LMI's 16 and later 32 bit FORTH versions. I had a blast programming the conveyors because I could interweave the high and low level code in a real time interrupt driven environment. The real plus was being about to compile new verbs on the fly while the program was running to do diagnostics with. Any other environment would required that I stop the program, edit the source code, re-compile and then re-run. I was convinced FORTH was the best when a colleague and I coded a system in record time. We decided where and how our code would interact and then went to our respective motel rooms (most conveyors were programmed in the field because each design was unique), wrote our code and then zippered them together since we were able to do unit tests verb by verb instead of writing throwaway code scaffolding by loading up the stack with the arguments, executing the verb and then verifying the stack output. I had initially estimated the project to require nine months using traditional methods and we had a "working" version up in six weeks. We literally threw code at the wall and it all stuck.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
Start using WPF. It's not going anywhere anytime soon, and your Silverlight experience will serve you well. (Note that Silverlight and WPF are NOT the same, but they have a lot in common.) I don't know about VB. I was never a big fan of VB6, and my brief contact with VB.NET when it first came out convinced me that it was an abomination that should have been strangled at birth ;P However, I had to learn C# for a recent project, and found it an absolute joy to work with, especially in combination with WPF. I'm not going to say it's a perfect tech stack, but it is very good. That said, if I were developing anything that even had even a small need to be cross-platform, I would be looking at either HTML5/Javascript or C++/QT. If you're working with large datasets or graphics and performance is an issue, then C++ for sure. I very much doubt VB.NET is going away, though.
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
Don’t know about the hardware stuff, I’m still running Server 2005 with a few 2008s. No Silverlight 6 still really burns me. I hope they eventually release the Silverlight 5 code under an open source license. Otherwise… :( A year (or so) back I saw Apple’s app store on one of their laptops. After a few weeks of thinking on that (and on app stores on phones), I realized that was the future. Personally I hate the HTTP/JavaScript stack. It’s totally inept, in every way. (Lookup the definition of a kluge [^].) Silverlight could’ve been the answer, but they gave up in favor of an app store. I believe the reason is the commission on apps from millions of win 8 desktop, tablet, and phone. Don’t consider all that code a waste. Looks to me like MS used Silverlight (i.e. XAML & .net) to form Metro. So it’s kind of like a Silverlight 6 under a different environment. (Although I hate that comparison.) While I’ve not had the chance to upgrade a Silverlight app to Metro, it looks to be a rather smooth transition. I’ve only seen real line of business apps in Metro this month (July), so best practices are still being discovered. I’ve heard all versions of metro have some kind of build-in “corporate app store.” I’m looking forward to learning more about this.
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
k-vic wrote:
Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make.
Microsoft only cares about what will bring the most to their bottom line, be it OSs, apps, features or bugfixes. The only way to influence anything they do, will be to make it matter enough to their bottom line that they can't afford to ignore you. There aren't enough VB developers in the world to do that, so you've already lost. In the future, put everything Microsoft says though a what-will-add-the-most-to-their-bottom-line filter and you'll never be surprised by them again. As for your current options, there's really only two: spend the $$$ or jump ship. You can try for a third, but in the end you'll only have added wasting a lot of your time and energy prior to choosing one of the above two options.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
-
Is It Just Me Lately I get messages about my operating system that’s not that old, Server 2008 R2 that new software that I need to load isn’t supported by my operating system and that updating my operating systems means that I need to upgrade my computer to a 64 bit processor, the quote of $5,500.00 because I like grunt for my computer and upgrading my software is an expensive prospect. But that’s not all Now I hear from the top in Microsoft that Silverlight 6 won’t happen and all the development over the last few years was a waste of time and money on Web Development and that most of the technology will change. So all our development is only good for intranet and you can scrap half of that. There’s a whole heap of new technologies that I need to learn with windows 8 coming out and the programming language that I have invested into for years Visual Basic is now having reduced support after being told by Microsoft that they would continue to support the home language but now I’m hearing that if I want to continue with VB then I need to write games software. I don’t write games software and if I did then I would have to learn a lot more than VB to write game software. The Cross Road So what are my options? Maybe I should look at other Languages and Companies? Are they better with fewer problems? Maybe all VB programmers should consider jumping ship or adding pressure to Microsoft to honor their commitment to statements they make. Maybe letting one person make decision about the future and movement of development should not be decided by a few but by a steering committee. I’m feeling quite bullied at the moment, maybe I’m over thinking this?
Several things come to mind. Ye, Microsoft is bullying you. After all they really don't need to progress to stay in business. They can choose to fall by the wayside as IBM did. But moving beyond that, Silverlight is far from dead. It has support for many more years and companies will continue to use it inside for years to come. External, it just won't hold what traction it has. Apple fought against Flash (which is what Silverlight was designed to compete with) and won. For the end user it is a good thing too. But all is not lost. Going from Silverlight to WPF is very easy. And the WindowsRT XAML is supposedly very much like Silverlight. (I don't really know first hand.) Personally I think Windows 8 will be a dismal failure much the way Vista was. If you are writing for yourself, just make backups and keep doing what your doing. No reason to change if it meets your needs. If you write software for a living it would be advisable to keep learning and realize that you may need to leave .NET before retirement. Don't like it? Find another field.
-
I started in TERSE, an inhouse FORTH variant I used to program the Biorhythm cartridge for the Bally Home Arcade. Ultimately it was Z-80 machine code, but I programmed an interface between the system core code and the TERSE development environment. I was able to code in the high level FORTH-like language for prototyping purposes and then replace verb by verb to low level assembler (using FORTH verbs for assembly). I later rewrote a FIG-Forth for the Apple II's 6502 processor so I could do "platform neutral" development for the software publisher I was working for at the time. The plan had been to make Atari, Coleco, and IBM versions to create common core software with the presentation side customized for the deployed environment, avoiding a least common denominator system. I later did computer controlled conveyors using LMI's 16 and later 32 bit FORTH versions. I had a blast programming the conveyors because I could interweave the high and low level code in a real time interrupt driven environment. The real plus was being about to compile new verbs on the fly while the program was running to do diagnostics with. Any other environment would required that I stop the program, edit the source code, re-compile and then re-run. I was convinced FORTH was the best when a colleague and I coded a system in record time. We decided where and how our code would interact and then went to our respective motel rooms (most conveyors were programmed in the field because each design was unique), wrote our code and then zippered them together since we were able to do unit tests verb by verb instead of writing throwaway code scaffolding by loading up the stack with the arguments, executing the verb and then verifying the stack output. I had initially estimated the project to require nine months using traditional methods and we had a "working" version up in six weeks. We literally threw code at the wall and it all stuck.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
There were days that programming languages were tools at the hands of developers to build great things. Nowadays, majority of developers are the just typist to convert a syntax of some shitty language to some app. This is just sad. I'm a software developer, or at least I like to think that. The only true languages that I fell in love with were C/C++ and Java. And all of these languages were around for more than a decade. I know how write (type) code in dozens of other languages , but I just don't trust them enough to use them in any real-world case. But now, you see lots of kids that just want to show off their skills by writing code in some language that some person/company designed. I mean why would anyone think that learning a new technology would indicate the level of your proficiency in programming is beyond my understanding. I agree with the fact that in programming, nothing has foundamentally changed: of course the underlying technology is always updating, but when you write in a great language, that language should distance you from those details. If you find yourself thinking too much about anything other than the algorithms, either change your language or accept the fact that you're a coder, not a developer. To the OP: you made your own bed when you chose a closed eco-system language and a technology that hasn't passed its test. Now you're at the mercy of Microsoft. Suck it an pay up.
-
CDP1802 wrote:
And do you really believe all that? For all those years all kinds of companies have tried to sell us their next new thing, always promising that we will get better, more productive and more successful than ever. How productive should we be up to now? Do we do the impossible instantly, only wonders take a little longer? Do less software projects fail now? Do you actually need any of this stuff?
Alright. Go write your next large multi-platform GUI-based program in machine code. While you're busy wasting your time and pretending that none of it changes anything, I'll be doing something productive, like finishing the same application in a fraction of the time by learning to use and utilize new tools as they become available :)
lewax00 wrote:
I'll be doing something productive, like finishing the same application in a fraction of the time by learning to use and utilize new tools as they become available
How exactly did you measure that improvement? Did you base your results on many different problem domains? Do those problem domains span not only different industry but also different platform targets like 24x7 high volume servers, game platforms, phones, tablets and embedded systems? Are you claiming that your personal (presumably) experience spans differing skill sets of development teams and different experience levels? Are you claiming that all tools each individually reduce your development time to a fraction? And absolutely none of them are duds? Actually given the vast number of new technologies introduced every single year then if even a fraction of them individually reduce development time to a "fraction" then you must be finishing all of your projects in mere seconds.
-
There were days that programming languages were tools at the hands of developers to build great things. Nowadays, majority of developers are the just typist to convert a syntax of some shitty language to some app. This is just sad. I'm a software developer, or at least I like to think that. The only true languages that I fell in love with were C/C++ and Java. And all of these languages were around for more than a decade. I know how write (type) code in dozens of other languages , but I just don't trust them enough to use them in any real-world case. But now, you see lots of kids that just want to show off their skills by writing code in some language that some person/company designed. I mean why would anyone think that learning a new technology would indicate the level of your proficiency in programming is beyond my understanding. I agree with the fact that in programming, nothing has foundamentally changed: of course the underlying technology is always updating, but when you write in a great language, that language should distance you from those details. If you find yourself thinking too much about anything other than the algorithms, either change your language or accept the fact that you're a coder, not a developer. To the OP: you made your own bed when you chose a closed eco-system language and a technology that hasn't passed its test. Now you're at the mercy of Microsoft. Suck it an pay up.
adel ahmadyan wrote:
To the OP: you made your own bed when you chose a closed eco-system language and a technology that hasn't passed its test. Now you're at the mercy of Microsoft. Suck it an pay up.
They will learn, eventually. At least those, who reach the point where playing with Lego does not bring them any further and that they can indeed make anything they want themselves. We just had the privilege to skip the Lego phase because Lego was not really invented back then. We had to rely more on our own stuff and have little reason to get excited over the next new Lego sets they want to sell us.
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
-
lewax00 wrote:
I'll be doing something productive, like finishing the same application in a fraction of the time by learning to use and utilize new tools as they become available
How exactly did you measure that improvement? Did you base your results on many different problem domains? Do those problem domains span not only different industry but also different platform targets like 24x7 high volume servers, game platforms, phones, tablets and embedded systems? Are you claiming that your personal (presumably) experience spans differing skill sets of development teams and different experience levels? Are you claiming that all tools each individually reduce your development time to a fraction? And absolutely none of them are duds? Actually given the vast number of new technologies introduced every single year then if even a fraction of them individually reduce development time to a "fraction" then you must be finishing all of your projects in mere seconds.
jschell wrote:
Are you claiming that all tools each individually reduce your development time to a fraction? And absolutely none of them are duds?
No, but the fact that we aren't all programming machine code shows that at least some of them must be useful (I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want to create things like collection classes from the ground up every time I write a new program). And how are you going to tell what's useful and what's a dud without trying it out?
jschell wrote:
Actually given the vast number of new technologies introduced every single year then if even a fraction of them individually reduce development time to a "fraction" then you must be finishing all of your projects in mere seconds.
And if you want to split hairs (and apparently you do), a fraction can also be something like 999/1000, it would take a lot of those before you could reduce it on the scale you're talking about. But basically, if I felt a tool wasn't helping me be more productive, I wouldn't bother to use it.
-
jschell wrote:
Are you claiming that all tools each individually reduce your development time to a fraction? And absolutely none of them are duds?
No, but the fact that we aren't all programming machine code shows that at least some of them must be useful (I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want to create things like collection classes from the ground up every time I write a new program). And how are you going to tell what's useful and what's a dud without trying it out?
jschell wrote:
Actually given the vast number of new technologies introduced every single year then if even a fraction of them individually reduce development time to a "fraction" then you must be finishing all of your projects in mere seconds.
And if you want to split hairs (and apparently you do), a fraction can also be something like 999/1000, it would take a lot of those before you could reduce it on the scale you're talking about. But basically, if I felt a tool wasn't helping me be more productive, I wouldn't bother to use it.
lewax00 wrote:
No, but the fact that we aren't all programming machine code shows that at least some of them must be useful
Machine code must be something absolutely scary. I begin to wonder what remains when we take away all your tools and gadgets. How far would you get without them?
lewax00 wrote:
but I certainly don't want to create things like collection classes from the ground up every time I write a new program
That answers a few questions.
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
-
lewax00 wrote:
No, but the fact that we aren't all programming machine code shows that at least some of them must be useful
Machine code must be something absolutely scary. I begin to wonder what remains when we take away all your tools and gadgets. How far would you get without them?
lewax00 wrote:
but I certainly don't want to create things like collection classes from the ground up every time I write a new program
That answers a few questions.
At least artificial intelligence already is superior to natural stupidity
CDP1802 wrote:
Machine code must be something absolutely scary.
No, I use it as an example because that's the original form of programming, keying in codes to the processor or memory directly. If nothing had changed than that leaves you in that original state, i.e. programming in machine code. (I would use assembly because of the 1:1 correspondence, but even those mnemonics are an advancement, and that introduces an assembler into the tool chain.) I can program in a few different assembly languages (and by extension, machine code), but I choose not to because in the vast majority of applications it is a waste of time, and it's much harder to maintain. For example, if I go into VS and create a new WinForms application, compile it without changes, the result is almost 300 lines of IL. Each of those IL instructions will translate into at least one machine instruction (I doubt many, if any at all, will translate to just one instruction). So are you saying that hundreds of lines of assembly is going to be less error prone than the total 79 lines of C#?