Marikana murder charges: South Africa minister wants explanation
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
I think it goes something along the lines of They were rioting We had to shoot them to get them to stop rioting If they hadn't been rioting, we wouldn't have shot them Therefore it is their fault we shot them Makes perfect sense to me. Think of it in terms of alcohol, it isn't your fault if you drink to much, it is the gin maker's fault for making it for you to drink. OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
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I think it goes something along the lines of They were rioting We had to shoot them to get them to stop rioting If they hadn't been rioting, we wouldn't have shot them Therefore it is their fault we shot them Makes perfect sense to me. Think of it in terms of alcohol, it isn't your fault if you drink to much, it is the gin maker's fault for making it for you to drink. OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
RJOberg wrote:
if you drink to much
You had me up to this point. How do you drink 'too much'? Is it a cocktail?
RJOberg wrote:
OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
Too much vermouth. Try five parts gin and a slight tipping of the glass towards France.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I think it goes something along the lines of They were rioting We had to shoot them to get them to stop rioting If they hadn't been rioting, we wouldn't have shot them Therefore it is their fault we shot them Makes perfect sense to me. Think of it in terms of alcohol, it isn't your fault if you drink to much, it is the gin maker's fault for making it for you to drink. OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
Fun game, let me do some more analogies. Those miners wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been miners (even if they would have been shot, it wouldn't be miners getting shot), so it's really their employers fault for hiring them. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been born, so it's really their parents fault. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they had had no reason to riot, so it's really the employer/govt/dunno's fault. If someone had dragged them away from the riot, they wouldn't have gotten shot, so it's really everyone's fault.
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RJOberg wrote:
if you drink to much
You had me up to this point. How do you drink 'too much'? Is it a cocktail?
RJOberg wrote:
OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
Too much vermouth. Try five parts gin and a slight tipping of the glass towards France.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
You had me up to this point. How do you drink 'too much'? Is it a cocktail?
I think 'too much' is when you die from it. Up until that point, you haven't had enough.
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Too much vermouth. Try five parts gin and a slight tipping of the glass towards France.
I will request that next time I have one.
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Fun game, let me do some more analogies. Those miners wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been miners (even if they would have been shot, it wouldn't be miners getting shot), so it's really their employers fault for hiring them. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been born, so it's really their parents fault. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they had had no reason to riot, so it's really the employer/govt/dunno's fault. If someone had dragged them away from the riot, they wouldn't have gotten shot, so it's really everyone's fault.
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harold aptroot wrote:
so it's really everyone's fault
Exactly! And since it is everyone's fault, we all need to be arrested and shot.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Had this shooting happened in the USA or anywhere in Europ there would not have been such an outcry againsst the police. Taking into consideration that the miners already killed 10 of there own and 2 police officers, what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes? The protesters even cut body parts of the people they murdered for muti (potions brewed by witch doctors known as sangomas). The sad part is that most protesters turn to violence here in South Africa. I for one can say that I would open fire, if an angry mob had to approach me waving machettes that can sever a limb or kill you with one blow. Anyone that does not agree with that can get lost.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
In SA we have an extremely egalitarian constitution and very fair courts. This is a pathetic gesture by government to justify their collusion with capitalist machines. I am confident justice will prevail and our courts will find this as laughable as we do.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
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Had this shooting happened in the USA or anywhere in Europ there would not have been such an outcry againsst the police. Taking into consideration that the miners already killed 10 of there own and 2 police officers, what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes? The protesters even cut body parts of the people they murdered for muti (potions brewed by witch doctors known as sangomas). The sad part is that most protesters turn to violence here in South Africa. I for one can say that I would open fire, if an angry mob had to approach me waving machettes that can sever a limb or kill you with one blow. Anyone that does not agree with that can get lost.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
sucram wrote:
what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes?
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
BTW, that's twice. ;P I find it absolutely ridiculous. I have read a couple of SA media takes on this and as you say it /should/ all come out in the courts. What I don't believe is that it actually got to the point of charging them.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine: I've been biting my tongue now since it happened so that i can get a better perspective. Here is my take: I was trained and taught riot control in the SADF. I've been on both sides, although not comparative, are similar. I was sjambokked and gassed and hosed down at Wit's when Winnie Mandela spoke there in 1987. I've also been in riot control via SADF in later years and have been in control of social unrest in various places including where we were ambushed in Thembisa and Alex. This is what I think happened: There was clearly no Command and Control on the SAPS side. The commander never anticipated a change in direction of an impi style battle formation and obviously had no plan to counter it. If you look at the video footage, the SAPS were caught off guard by being outflanked. Emotions were very high. Both unions have since the start, distanced themselves from what was happening. Now, I know from experience, no public protests are as random as us whitey liberals want to think. The fact that the protesters initiated movement on the police line, armed and aggressive meant it was not a peaceful protest.Escalation! However, the Amaberete should NOT have been there. When the firing took place, there were cops firing from BEHIND each other, no fire disciple, no secondaries, no support where they were outflanked. Please explain to me that the movements of the strikers were NOT planned? I was trained to respond like this. Form a line, show of force.a designed marksman gets a command if a firearm is spotted: " Marksman 1 (or 2 or 3 or whomever), man in green jacket, 2 o clock, armed, one shot only, FIRE. Send in a capture squad. These procedures were not in place and probably not even trained for. The marksman was there, the white cop with a scope on his rifle. With a panicking idiot behind him returning fire on full auto. Did anyone see the shots fired at the police? I did. AT the end of the day, this was a staged, well orchestrated disaster that has BOTH parties to blame.One side was inept, the other ruthless and cunning. At the end of the day, this was not a random event IMO. This was political and planned.
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BTW, that's twice. ;P I find it absolutely ridiculous. I have read a couple of SA media takes on this and as you say it /should/ all come out in the courts. What I don't believe is that it actually got to the point of charging them.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Charging them are evidence of a government desperate to divert attention from it's part in creating the scenario that led to this tragedy. I am not pro ANC, and neither are our courts. Our police, however, remain a dark blur on this country's will to escape the bad name that is Africa.
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sucram wrote:
what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes?
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
Ok, are they supposed to stand still and wave their fingers at them, as if they were naughty children, and send them to the naughty corner. Yes I can agree that the police was ill disciplined, and not prepared or trained to handle the situation. But then again they no longer receive the kind of training that we received in the SANDF. But I can tell you from experience that once protesters get as close to you as they did we would have opened fire as well.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
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Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine: I've been biting my tongue now since it happened so that i can get a better perspective. Here is my take: I was trained and taught riot control in the SADF. I've been on both sides, although not comparative, are similar. I was sjambokked and gassed and hosed down at Wit's when Winnie Mandela spoke there in 1987. I've also been in riot control via SADF in later years and have been in control of social unrest in various places including where we were ambushed in Thembisa and Alex. This is what I think happened: There was clearly no Command and Control on the SAPS side. The commander never anticipated a change in direction of an impi style battle formation and obviously had no plan to counter it. If you look at the video footage, the SAPS were caught off guard by being outflanked. Emotions were very high. Both unions have since the start, distanced themselves from what was happening. Now, I know from experience, no public protests are as random as us whitey liberals want to think. The fact that the protesters initiated movement on the police line, armed and aggressive meant it was not a peaceful protest.Escalation! However, the Amaberete should NOT have been there. When the firing took place, there were cops firing from BEHIND each other, no fire disciple, no secondaries, no support where they were outflanked. Please explain to me that the movements of the strikers were NOT planned? I was trained to respond like this. Form a line, show of force.a designed marksman gets a command if a firearm is spotted: " Marksman 1 (or 2 or 3 or whomever), man in green jacket, 2 o clock, armed, one shot only, FIRE. Send in a capture squad. These procedures were not in place and probably not even trained for. The marksman was there, the white cop with a scope on his rifle. With a panicking idiot behind him returning fire on full auto. Did anyone see the shots fired at the police? I did. AT the end of the day, this was a staged, well orchestrated disaster that has BOTH parties to blame.One side was inept, the other ruthless and cunning. At the end of the day, this was not a random event IMO. This was political and planned.
So the take is that the strikers wanted to provoke the police? We saw that in the UK during the troubles [where the Army would respond ruthlessly] and also during industrial conflicts, most noticeably the Miners Strike [against an unarmed police force]. Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation. Very insightful post anyway; it'll be lonely here in the SB :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Ok, are they supposed to stand still and wave their fingers at them, as if they were naughty children, and send them to the naughty corner. Yes I can agree that the police was ill disciplined, and not prepared or trained to handle the situation. But then again they no longer receive the kind of training that we received in the SANDF. But I can tell you from experience that once protesters get as close to you as they did we would have opened fire as well.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
They are supposed to shoot them one at a time in the hope that their mates pull back. I understand the cops' pov but I thing that a bunch of urban street constables were deployed against an angry and violent crowd. I do not for one second blame the policemen on the ground when this took place. I blame the people that deployed only average cops into what could have been and did become a proper combat situation.
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So the take is that the strikers wanted to provoke the police? We saw that in the UK during the troubles [where the Army would respond ruthlessly] and also during industrial conflicts, most noticeably the Miners Strike [against an unarmed police force]. Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation. Very insightful post anyway; it'll be lonely here in the SB :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation.
That's hardly between the lines. That is the general take amongst South Africans with any education and access to plain and simple journalism, and ego news.
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BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
England, Wales and NIreland got rid of it in '57 (but E & W have partially reinstated it, sort of, in some circumstances). Canada is all blurry on it. The US has it in some jurisdictions in some circumstances. However, according to most US TV cop shows, it is usually used to coerce accomplices into ratting out their co-criminals.
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