Marikana murder charges: South Africa minister wants explanation
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
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Had this shooting happened in the USA or anywhere in Europ there would not have been such an outcry againsst the police. Taking into consideration that the miners already killed 10 of there own and 2 police officers, what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes? The protesters even cut body parts of the people they murdered for muti (potions brewed by witch doctors known as sangomas). The sad part is that most protesters turn to violence here in South Africa. I for one can say that I would open fire, if an angry mob had to approach me waving machettes that can sever a limb or kill you with one blow. Anyone that does not agree with that can get lost.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
sucram wrote:
what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes?
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
BTW, that's twice. ;P I find it absolutely ridiculous. I have read a couple of SA media takes on this and as you say it /should/ all come out in the courts. What I don't believe is that it actually got to the point of charging them.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine: I've been biting my tongue now since it happened so that i can get a better perspective. Here is my take: I was trained and taught riot control in the SADF. I've been on both sides, although not comparative, are similar. I was sjambokked and gassed and hosed down at Wit's when Winnie Mandela spoke there in 1987. I've also been in riot control via SADF in later years and have been in control of social unrest in various places including where we were ambushed in Thembisa and Alex. This is what I think happened: There was clearly no Command and Control on the SAPS side. The commander never anticipated a change in direction of an impi style battle formation and obviously had no plan to counter it. If you look at the video footage, the SAPS were caught off guard by being outflanked. Emotions were very high. Both unions have since the start, distanced themselves from what was happening. Now, I know from experience, no public protests are as random as us whitey liberals want to think. The fact that the protesters initiated movement on the police line, armed and aggressive meant it was not a peaceful protest.Escalation! However, the Amaberete should NOT have been there. When the firing took place, there were cops firing from BEHIND each other, no fire disciple, no secondaries, no support where they were outflanked. Please explain to me that the movements of the strikers were NOT planned? I was trained to respond like this. Form a line, show of force.a designed marksman gets a command if a firearm is spotted: " Marksman 1 (or 2 or 3 or whomever), man in green jacket, 2 o clock, armed, one shot only, FIRE. Send in a capture squad. These procedures were not in place and probably not even trained for. The marksman was there, the white cop with a scope on his rifle. With a panicking idiot behind him returning fire on full auto. Did anyone see the shots fired at the police? I did. AT the end of the day, this was a staged, well orchestrated disaster that has BOTH parties to blame.One side was inept, the other ruthless and cunning. At the end of the day, this was not a random event IMO. This was political and planned.
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BTW, that's twice. ;P I find it absolutely ridiculous. I have read a couple of SA media takes on this and as you say it /should/ all come out in the courts. What I don't believe is that it actually got to the point of charging them.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Charging them are evidence of a government desperate to divert attention from it's part in creating the scenario that led to this tragedy. I am not pro ANC, and neither are our courts. Our police, however, remain a dark blur on this country's will to escape the bad name that is Africa.
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sucram wrote:
what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes?
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
Ok, are they supposed to stand still and wave their fingers at them, as if they were naughty children, and send them to the naughty corner. Yes I can agree that the police was ill disciplined, and not prepared or trained to handle the situation. But then again they no longer receive the kind of training that we received in the SANDF. But I can tell you from experience that once protesters get as close to you as they did we would have opened fire as well.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
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Some thoughts from a very good friend of mine: I've been biting my tongue now since it happened so that i can get a better perspective. Here is my take: I was trained and taught riot control in the SADF. I've been on both sides, although not comparative, are similar. I was sjambokked and gassed and hosed down at Wit's when Winnie Mandela spoke there in 1987. I've also been in riot control via SADF in later years and have been in control of social unrest in various places including where we were ambushed in Thembisa and Alex. This is what I think happened: There was clearly no Command and Control on the SAPS side. The commander never anticipated a change in direction of an impi style battle formation and obviously had no plan to counter it. If you look at the video footage, the SAPS were caught off guard by being outflanked. Emotions were very high. Both unions have since the start, distanced themselves from what was happening. Now, I know from experience, no public protests are as random as us whitey liberals want to think. The fact that the protesters initiated movement on the police line, armed and aggressive meant it was not a peaceful protest.Escalation! However, the Amaberete should NOT have been there. When the firing took place, there were cops firing from BEHIND each other, no fire disciple, no secondaries, no support where they were outflanked. Please explain to me that the movements of the strikers were NOT planned? I was trained to respond like this. Form a line, show of force.a designed marksman gets a command if a firearm is spotted: " Marksman 1 (or 2 or 3 or whomever), man in green jacket, 2 o clock, armed, one shot only, FIRE. Send in a capture squad. These procedures were not in place and probably not even trained for. The marksman was there, the white cop with a scope on his rifle. With a panicking idiot behind him returning fire on full auto. Did anyone see the shots fired at the police? I did. AT the end of the day, this was a staged, well orchestrated disaster that has BOTH parties to blame.One side was inept, the other ruthless and cunning. At the end of the day, this was not a random event IMO. This was political and planned.
So the take is that the strikers wanted to provoke the police? We saw that in the UK during the troubles [where the Army would respond ruthlessly] and also during industrial conflicts, most noticeably the Miners Strike [against an unarmed police force]. Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation. Very insightful post anyway; it'll be lonely here in the SB :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Ok, are they supposed to stand still and wave their fingers at them, as if they were naughty children, and send them to the naughty corner. Yes I can agree that the police was ill disciplined, and not prepared or trained to handle the situation. But then again they no longer receive the kind of training that we received in the SANDF. But I can tell you from experience that once protesters get as close to you as they did we would have opened fire as well.
If only closed minds would come with closed mouths. Ego non sum semper iustus tamen Ego sum nunquam nefas!
They are supposed to shoot them one at a time in the hope that their mates pull back. I understand the cops' pov but I thing that a bunch of urban street constables were deployed against an angry and violent crowd. I do not for one second blame the policemen on the ground when this took place. I blame the people that deployed only average cops into what could have been and did become a proper combat situation.
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So the take is that the strikers wanted to provoke the police? We saw that in the UK during the troubles [where the Army would respond ruthlessly] and also during industrial conflicts, most noticeably the Miners Strike [against an unarmed police force]. Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation. Very insightful post anyway; it'll be lonely here in the SB :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Reading between the lines, the deaths were wholly preventable. It sounds like the police were not up to the job or [more likely] the officers in charge could not mange the situation.
That's hardly between the lines. That is the general take amongst South Africans with any education and access to plain and simple journalism, and ego news.
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BTW, we 'inherited' the common cause law from England.
England, Wales and NIreland got rid of it in '57 (but E & W have partially reinstated it, sort of, in some circumstances). Canada is all blurry on it. The US has it in some jurisdictions in some circumstances. However, according to most US TV cop shows, it is usually used to coerce accomplices into ratting out their co-criminals.
No dogs or cats are in the classroom. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
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England, Wales and NIreland got rid of it in '57 (but E & W have partially reinstated it, sort of, in some circumstances). Canada is all blurry on it. The US has it in some jurisdictions in some circumstances. However, according to most US TV cop shows, it is usually used to coerce accomplices into ratting out their co-criminals.
No dogs or cats are in the classroom. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
GenJerDan wrote:
However, according to most US TV cop shows, it is usually used to coerce accomplices into ratting out their co-criminals.
I suspect this may be a motive in threatening innocent miners with murder; rat out your union leaders and get to keep your precarious and underpaid job.
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South Africa's justice minister has demanded an explanation after 270 miners were charged with the murder of their colleagues who were shot by police.
:wtf: Seriously, W.T.F? Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths? How in the name of elephanted up stupid inbreeding mother-lovers did they even think they'd get away with this? Please, can anyone explain this to me, I would really like to know.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Police shoot 34 miners and then charge their fellow miners with the deaths?
Can't speak to that jurisdiction but as one explanation in the US many places have what is called "Felony Murder". Basic idea is the if you commit a serious crime and during the commission of that crime someone dies, regardless of how, then you get charged with murder. As an example, if you jump the counter in a bank (so no gun), grab some cash, flee in a car and a police car chases you and the police car runs over a pedestrian then you would be charged with felony murder.
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Fun game, let me do some more analogies. Those miners wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been miners (even if they would have been shot, it wouldn't be miners getting shot), so it's really their employers fault for hiring them. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they hadn't been born, so it's really their parents fault. They wouldn't have gotten shot if they had had no reason to riot, so it's really the employer/govt/dunno's fault. If someone had dragged them away from the riot, they wouldn't have gotten shot, so it's really everyone's fault.
harold aptroot wrote:
Fun game, let me do some more analogies.
It isn't an analogy - but more likely a law. Yours on the other hand are not. And many people find such laws just when a loved one of theirs is killed, regardless of how, when someone else is committing a crime.
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sucram wrote:
what are 40 or so cops supposed to do when an angry mob of 3000 + workers approach them waving machettes?
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
Brady Kelly wrote:
They are supposed to behave as professionals, not as panicked and uncoordinated idiots with machine guns.
What? Exactly what country do you live in where armed police would not open fire when someone runs at them waving a machete? Much less a large group? Shooting is exactly what "professional" police officers would do.
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They are supposed to shoot them one at a time in the hope that their mates pull back. I understand the cops' pov but I thing that a bunch of urban street constables were deployed against an angry and violent crowd. I do not for one second blame the policemen on the ground when this took place. I blame the people that deployed only average cops into what could have been and did become a proper combat situation.
Brady Kelly wrote:
They are supposed to shoot them one at a time in the hope that their mates pull back.
Again what? In the footage I saw, a group of men was RUNNING at the police officers. And it wasn't a long distance either. Have you ever shot a gun? Have you participated in a combat exercise with a gun? Have you looked at any police or military training materials?
Brady Kelly wrote:
and did become a proper combat situation.
And you think that regular military would have done what exactly to this running mob? Military troops might be able to shoot single shot but in it takes very little time to go full auto and I have never seen anything to suggest that a military force in the same situation would have not have reacted in exactly the same way. Oh wait, there might have been one difference...a military force might have killed MORE people.
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harold aptroot wrote:
Fun game, let me do some more analogies.
It isn't an analogy - but more likely a law. Yours on the other hand are not. And many people find such laws just when a loved one of theirs is killed, regardless of how, when someone else is committing a crime.
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In SA we have an extremely egalitarian constitution and very fair courts. This is a pathetic gesture by government to justify their collusion with capitalist machines. I am confident justice will prevail and our courts will find this as laughable as we do.
Brady Kelly wrote:
In SA we have an extremely egalitarian constitution and very fair courts. This is a pathetic gesture by government to justify their collusion with capitalist machines.
I am confident justice will prevail and our courts will find this as laughable as we do.Good luck with that. In the US in such a situation the legal system would be more than willing to put others behind bars if they could show that they encouraged those that were killed into attacking the police. There are laws specifically about that.
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I think it goes something along the lines of They were rioting We had to shoot them to get them to stop rioting If they hadn't been rioting, we wouldn't have shot them Therefore it is their fault we shot them Makes perfect sense to me. Think of it in terms of alcohol, it isn't your fault if you drink to much, it is the gin maker's fault for making it for you to drink. OT: Speaking of gin, had a fantastic martini last night. Gin, twist of lemon, stirred, nice and cold without the flakes of ice, and shown a picture of vermouth for just a few seconds.
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England, Wales and NIreland got rid of it in '57 (but E & W have partially reinstated it, sort of, in some circumstances). Canada is all blurry on it. The US has it in some jurisdictions in some circumstances. However, according to most US TV cop shows, it is usually used to coerce accomplices into ratting out their co-criminals.
No dogs or cats are in the classroom. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.