Will Windows 8/Metro be dead on arrival?
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As well as writing code, I also use Windows and Cakewalk Sonar to record my own music. The reports from RC adopters over at the Sonar forum say that they can use half the buffers for the same project and it's load on the system than windows 7, which means lower latencies for real time virtual instrument playing for instance. I like the way it runs on my celeron based toshiba laptop. It's fast and smooth even on that chip. I hate metro. I hate the lack of a start menu and button, so I run a 3rd party start menu on that machine, But metro or not, I will likely get it for my studio to enjoy the better performance. By day I run a computer shop. I had one of my customers come in white faced panic after installing the customer preview in his laptop. His words were. "Where's all my stuff!?" "Get this off my computer!" We backed up his "stuff", reinstalled 7 and sent him on his way after running his CC for the work done. I expect more of this shock (and work) when people see metro for the first time.
That's encouraging, Ron. One reason I've shied away from using a software DAW (you should see the collection of hardware relics I have in my home studio!) is the issue of latency. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
SixOfTheClock wrote:
Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far?
Didn't we go over this already? With the Start-button to shut down? If you don't like Windows, use something else. No, it ain't going away, no matter how bad you want it to - people still pay for the product, so it must be usable "somewhere".
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
As with any new release of Visual Studio, Windows, some language or some database server or just about anything else, I always think, geez, what I really want is something a lot simpler. I probably don't use 90% of VS's features - syntax highlighting, solution management, debugging. That's it. The rest just gets in the way, and I try to configure the environment to minimize that (no task window, compiler output set to "quiet", automatic "show me the output window" when compiling, etc.) The OS is like that too. There are so many brain-dead things about Windows. I have to select a list of music in reverse order (bottom to top) to then press Enter and have them play in top-to-bottom order. Most of the OS either gets in the way or doesn't support how I want to do things, which is why I end up installing things like Fences and Xplorer2. So no, I don't want my OS to be styled after some commuter subway / bus / train signage. I don't want it to act like a tablet (where it makes more sense) to display everything in full screen mode. I have 3 monitors and dozen or more windows opened often enough, not including browser tabs. I don't want to switch to "desktop mode" or whatever they call it, giving me the impression that I'm a retard for reverting back to the "old" way of doing things, but then again, to run ANY of the programs I want to actually use, I have to use the "retarded" way of doing things. Where's the logic in that? Metro is just another "dumb it down" interface. If a client wants something written in Metro, then sure, pay me the bucks and I'll have fun learning more, but personally, it's not for me on the desktop. I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems with it on a tablet or phone, because in that context, it makes more sense, because of the ergonomics of the device. That should be the driving factor, IMO. Marc
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
Windows 8 is great in that it finally gives developers a stage to sell their apps/games. I have been involved with two apps on the Store at the moment. One is my game Game Dev Tycoon[^] and the other a mind mapping app called NovaMind[^]. We've just hit ten thousand downloads on Game Dev Tycoon. This is our first game. We are a new company. I think that potential exposure alone will see a new wave of apps and games and ultimately Windows 8 is targeted at consumers so if consumers are able to get apps that they like Windows 8 will do great.
Founder of Greenheart Games, makers of Game Dev Tycoon (www.playgamedevtycoon.com). Development Manager and C#/WPF developer at novamind.com - www.patrickklug.com
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
i just installed win 8 on mom's acer laptop (dual core@1,6ghz, 2gb ram, dog slow hdd). it ran vista and it was unbearable. win 8 just runs decent. it's fluid, starts relatively fast, closes fast. has the option to reset/restore/keep file versions. i just don't get this bitching about the start button and start menu. the new metro stuff has a bit of a learning curve but i think it's quite nice. one can have all it's stuff there: email preview, chat, photos cycling, facebook updates. i won't be using that much but it's ok for people that only do browsing, facebook, email, im etc. just love the way it's fluid even on crap hardware. i can say that i don't like the fact that you have two sets of system config: one from metro and one from desktop. i guess the metro version is needed as tablets can do with a watered down version of config. i believe that one can do most of the config a average person may need to do in the metro version. for the knowledgeable there is always "win + x". learn the few keyboard shortcuts that are really useful like win + x! your life with win 8 will be so much easier. one thing that i really love besides the restore/reset/file versions is storage spaces. that one is something that drove me towards linux to get that working. it took me weeks and moths to set it up ia a accepatble way. there are some speed issues there but the benefits are so great. all in all i'm looking forward to move to windoes 8 my work pc, my wife's (very decent acer timeline) laptop, my linux(fedora/amahi) file server. it's the first time i install a windows before it's available to the masses and i am quite happy. it's not perfect but it it definetly worth the upgrade, for tech heads as well as for "normal" folks.
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I was going to buy two replacement computers at the end of the year/beginning of next year (waiting on hardware technology), but it now looks like I'll be timing it to avoid win 8.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Windows 8 is great in that it finally gives developers a stage to sell their apps/games. I have been involved with two apps on the Store at the moment. One is my game Game Dev Tycoon[^] and the other a mind mapping app called NovaMind[^]. We've just hit ten thousand downloads on Game Dev Tycoon. This is our first game. We are a new company. I think that potential exposure alone will see a new wave of apps and games and ultimately Windows 8 is targeted at consumers so if consumers are able to get apps that they like Windows 8 will do great.
Founder of Greenheart Games, makers of Game Dev Tycoon (www.playgamedevtycoon.com). Development Manager and C#/WPF developer at novamind.com - www.patrickklug.com
That's got precious little to do with the OS, though. The same kind of shop could be created for win 3.11 apps and games.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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That's got precious little to do with the OS, though. The same kind of shop could be created for win 3.11 apps and games.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
that's like comparing the iPhone Store with one of the first Java capable Nokia's and claiming they could be the same.
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that's like comparing the iPhone Store with one of the first Java capable Nokia's and claiming they could be the same.
It's not like comparing anything to anything. Perfectly effective on-line stores can be made for any operating system, because the store has got nothing to do with the operating system -- it doesn't make the hardware work; it simply makes software available.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It's not like comparing anything to anything. Perfectly effective on-line stores can be made for any operating system, because the store has got nothing to do with the operating system -- it doesn't make the hardware work; it simply makes software available.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Except that the Windows 8 Store is based on WinRT, a completely new framework delivered in the operating system. It allows for full screen touch capable apps that take advantage of modern hardware and run on x86/x64 and ARM processors. Those apps are presented on an entire new layer. Now, how is that comparable with any online store?
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SixOfTheClock wrote:
I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while
Same here. I do not have any real justifiable reasons to do an upgrade to it.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
It has drastically better performance, but I guess that's not a compelling reason to upgrade.
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
I installed Windows 8 Enterpise evaluation and I hated it in the beginning and wanted to go back to Win7 which is still installed on another partition. I decided to give Win8 a chance and use it for a few days. Now it's been 17 days and I like it. I don't boot into Win7 any more. I use Win8 for web development, Visual Studio 2012, SQL Server 2012. Win8 is fast. I tried SourceFilmmaker on Win7 and 8 and it's more responsive under Win8, it was an obvious benchmark, I have a 4 years old laptop. I don't use Metro apps, they don't belong on desktop, just ignore them. The Start screen is fine. I don't miss the start button, just drop your mouse into the corner. The only thing that moved too far is the power button, before I could hibernate in two clicks, now it's not so convenient. Anyone who's sceptical give it a go, try to do work in desktop mode, forget about metro, stick with Win8 for a week, overcome some initial frustration because the cheese has been moved and you will like it. It's a good fast OS. Tomorrow your grandma or granddaughter will be using it because they just bought a new PC, you wouldn't want to be limping behind and not being able to help them learning new tricks. Overcome your ignorance, catch the cutting edge wave :-)
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Except that the Windows 8 Store is based on WinRT, a completely new framework delivered in the operating system. It allows for full screen touch capable apps that take advantage of modern hardware and run on x86/x64 and ARM processors. Those apps are presented on an entire new layer. Now, how is that comparable with any online store?
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I installed Windows 8 Enterpise evaluation and I hated it in the beginning and wanted to go back to Win7 which is still installed on another partition. I decided to give Win8 a chance and use it for a few days. Now it's been 17 days and I like it. I don't boot into Win7 any more. I use Win8 for web development, Visual Studio 2012, SQL Server 2012. Win8 is fast. I tried SourceFilmmaker on Win7 and 8 and it's more responsive under Win8, it was an obvious benchmark, I have a 4 years old laptop. I don't use Metro apps, they don't belong on desktop, just ignore them. The Start screen is fine. I don't miss the start button, just drop your mouse into the corner. The only thing that moved too far is the power button, before I could hibernate in two clicks, now it's not so convenient. Anyone who's sceptical give it a go, try to do work in desktop mode, forget about metro, stick with Win8 for a week, overcome some initial frustration because the cheese has been moved and you will like it. It's a good fast OS. Tomorrow your grandma or granddaughter will be using it because they just bought a new PC, you wouldn't want to be limping behind and not being able to help them learning new tricks. Overcome your ignorance, catch the cutting edge wave :-)
Deserves a five for being so well argued, but I still have serious doubts.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Yes, here we go again. I realise that this topic has probably been brought up countless times over the past few months but I have to know... what is the general consensus in the developer community about the upcoming release of Windows 8? I know Microsoft wanted to make some big changes to help them break into the tablet market, but is all the ridiculous flipping about between desktop/Metro mode the future or a great big waste of time? Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far? What do you think? All I know is that I won't be scrambling to this new OS for a good while yet if the final release on the 26th of October turns out like I think it might. :|
A programming language is to a programmer what a fine hat is to one who is fond of fancy garden parties. Just don't try wearing any .NET language on your head. Some of them are sharp.
As a developer having a number of windows desktop applications on the market I had no choice but to load Windows 8 so as to ensure that there were not issues with our products. There were some minor issues of course - as with any new OS - but none that were major and all were easily corrected. I've been using Windows 8 Pro since it's release to the Microsoft Partners on Aug 15, 2012 and will NOT go back to Windows 7 now that I've 'gotten the hang of it'. It's actually a wonderful OS despite all of the negative press! I too was listening too much to the negative press and installed it with some trepidation... (after making a drive image of my Windows 7 instance first :) ) My concerns as it turned out were un-warranted. Windows 8 is surprisingly nice! Granted, it does take about a week to 'get the hang' of it, but once that learning curve is behind you - it's extremely easy to use - and it's very fast and responsive... more so than any previous edition of Windows. I know that many are listening too much to the negative press and you must all keep in mind that many of the people that are espousing such comments simply do not like change... and this must be kept in mind when reading their comments. Since we're born things change yet so many dislike change. Don't listen to them! You're all grown-ups - make up your own mind. Install it and try it before you make a decision like a child that says "I don't like Oranges" when they've never even tried an Orange. I don't know how many times I asked a friend 'how was the movie?' and they replied 'It was OK' and then I went to see it and thought 'That was a good movie!'... had I listened to them - I'd have missed out on a good movie. So I've learned to judge for myself rather than listen to others... When I was a young man cars only went about 80k miles before they were done... now they go 180K or more before they're done... change is not always a bad thing... and in my opinion Windows 8 (despite the negative press) is a good thing too. What's the harm in making up your own mind rather than letting others make it up for you. Take an image of your HDD with Paragon Drive Image or one of the others out there and load Windows 8 and use it for a week or two - what's the harm when you can revert back to Windows 7 if you want... but I'd venture to say that after a week or two - you won't go back... it really is that flexible.
M Hamilton
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I installed Windows 8 Enterpise evaluation and I hated it in the beginning and wanted to go back to Win7 which is still installed on another partition. I decided to give Win8 a chance and use it for a few days. Now it's been 17 days and I like it. I don't boot into Win7 any more. I use Win8 for web development, Visual Studio 2012, SQL Server 2012. Win8 is fast. I tried SourceFilmmaker on Win7 and 8 and it's more responsive under Win8, it was an obvious benchmark, I have a 4 years old laptop. I don't use Metro apps, they don't belong on desktop, just ignore them. The Start screen is fine. I don't miss the start button, just drop your mouse into the corner. The only thing that moved too far is the power button, before I could hibernate in two clicks, now it's not so convenient. Anyone who's sceptical give it a go, try to do work in desktop mode, forget about metro, stick with Win8 for a week, overcome some initial frustration because the cheese has been moved and you will like it. It's a good fast OS. Tomorrow your grandma or granddaughter will be using it because they just bought a new PC, you wouldn't want to be limping behind and not being able to help them learning new tricks. Overcome your ignorance, catch the cutting edge wave :-)
I posted a message below yours just moments ago and just read your message about not going back to Windows 7 and agree - after using Windows 8 for a couple of weeks - once getting the 'hang of it' - I won't go back to Win 7 either... why digress. Windows 8 really rocks.
M Hamilton
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I was going to buy two replacement computers at the end of the year/beginning of next year (waiting on hardware technology), but it now looks like I'll be timing it to avoid win 8.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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SixOfTheClock wrote:
Was the removal of the Start Menu from the desktop a step too far?
Didn't we go over this already? With the Start-button to shut down? If you don't like Windows, use something else. No, it ain't going away, no matter how bad you want it to - people still pay for the product, so it must be usable "somewhere".
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
It's not about shutting down, it's about 17 years of experience of having a central starting point for finding all your programs and documents. The gripe about the missing start button is that Windows 8 provides no intuitive entry point. You switch on your computer and ... then you wonder how to start your favorite program. Granted, it's not that hard to set up your Metro interface, but if you've never seen that kind of interface then you pretty much need a manual to get started, or someone to explain it to you. Good luck if you don't have a printed manual and no one is near to help you. It's an inherent failure that there is no obvious "Click Here If You Are A First Time User" button, or equivalent. (Or is there? Honest question, I haven't seen the final release yet). The DOS Shell in the 80s didn't leave you any options - admittedly not the most user-friendly interface, but hard to miss once you've found the power-switch ;) The File Manager in Win3.x was pretty obvious as well, and not that different from Norton Commander, et al, that many users knew from DOS. The Start button introduced in Win95 may not have been that obvious by itself, but there weren't a whole lot of alternatives to click, and the UI wasn't all that different from Win3.x that it took users a long time to find out by themselves. But Win8_Metro_? Unless you have some experience from using smart phones or tablets, the UI is so radically different from Win95-Win7 that many users are simply left clueless. Instead of a neutral background with a couple of functional, small icons that unlock the basic functionality they're intimidated by something that looks more like some huge, aggressive wall of ads. Maybe it's just me, but the interface that works very well on a 4 inch mobile screen simply doesn't scale well to a 24 inch flat screen! It seems that MS has completely misunderstood the point of that interface: it was the lack of a useful pointing device that made touch gestures preferable over a point-and-click interface, and it was the small-size factor that made it neccessary to fill up the screen with pages of app-icons. For desktops, both don't make sense. Touch is a big No-No, and I want my icons to be small so I can fit all that I need on the desktop with sufficient space, without ever needing to page-flip. The name for this version of windows is aptly chosen. Metro: loud, screaming, fast, restless, aggressive, and a labyrinth to the unversed. Not a place I wish to stay. Not a place I wish to go in the fir
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Show some courage. Image your drive, Load Windows 8 and use it for two weeks - you won't go back. Make up your own mind - don't listen to others!
M Hamilton
Unfortunately, with all the tools I have to use, it takes a lot longer than two weeks for me to get a new system fully "ready for use". Moving to a new operating system is even more of a major task, where installation and licensing pitfalls can occur at every step, so I need a much better reason than just "try it out".
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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i just installed win 8 on mom's acer laptop (dual core@1,6ghz, 2gb ram, dog slow hdd). it ran vista and it was unbearable. win 8 just runs decent. it's fluid, starts relatively fast, closes fast. has the option to reset/restore/keep file versions. i just don't get this bitching about the start button and start menu. the new metro stuff has a bit of a learning curve but i think it's quite nice. one can have all it's stuff there: email preview, chat, photos cycling, facebook updates. i won't be using that much but it's ok for people that only do browsing, facebook, email, im etc. just love the way it's fluid even on crap hardware. i can say that i don't like the fact that you have two sets of system config: one from metro and one from desktop. i guess the metro version is needed as tablets can do with a watered down version of config. i believe that one can do most of the config a average person may need to do in the metro version. for the knowledgeable there is always "win + x". learn the few keyboard shortcuts that are really useful like win + x! your life with win 8 will be so much easier. one thing that i really love besides the restore/reset/file versions is storage spaces. that one is something that drove me towards linux to get that working. it took me weeks and moths to set it up ia a accepatble way. there are some speed issues there but the benefits are so great. all in all i'm looking forward to move to windoes 8 my work pc, my wife's (very decent acer timeline) laptop, my linux(fedora/amahi) file server. it's the first time i install a windows before it's available to the masses and i am quite happy. it's not perfect but it it definetly worth the upgrade, for tech heads as well as for "normal" folks.
Are you saying you only have Vista (or Linux) on all your machines? Just wondering, because I found Win7 to be incredibly stable and smooth to work with, even compared to the aged and proven XP, whereas Vista was just a homungous resource hog. If you have no qualms about the new interface paradigm, then I can easily imagine that you prefer the streamlined Win8 over Vista.