Anybody else read the Java thing in the daily news?
-
Andrei Straut wrote:
I always had the opinion that it was a simple and pretty straightforward language. I still do, after having learned C# (which is comparable to Java at any scale and comes as a close second on my list of favorites),
Microsoft had Java under Windows and then Visual J++. Sun sued them saying they own Java and Microsoft had no business improving on it with J++. Microsoft told Sun to elephant itself and came up wih C#. That is why C# is comparable to Java.
I knew that (although I was under the impression that the name would actually be J#), and as far as I remember, Sun sued under the reason that MS's implementation didn't respect certain clauses in the license. However, the reasons are less important. The two are really close to syntax and usability / learning curve, and that's what made me like C#
Full-fledged Java/.NET lover, full-fledged PHP hater. Full-fledged Google/Microsoft lover, full-fledged Apple hater. Full-fledged Skype lover, full-fledged YM hater.
-
The thing is that Java provides the shells needed to use Java/run Java apps on any platform. DotNET doesn't provide such shells (mono, for example, is third party open-source), so you can't simply copy a DotNET program to a mac or Linux machine and just run it without jumping through several hoops. The biggest problem with Java was performance, which was easy to hold up and sneer at, so, now that its performance has been hugely improved, people are getting antsy, and publishing scare stories that will just make Java supporters turn even more hard core.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
The biggest problem with Java was performance,
Versus what and in what context? Having spent 15 years (or longer?) writing servers the performance problems I have encountered have been due to requirements, architecture and design. And none of those have anything to do with language. And given that I have been doing java and C# for years and spent many years in C++ I do have some experience in those languages. And excluding some very specific problem domains I have never read anything that suggested that my experience is atypical - most performance problems are related to things beside language.
-
Norm .net wrote:
That may be but apparently it's installed on 1 Billion Devices :)
That may be but apparently it's installed on 1 Billion phones. FTFY.
-
Java...I have never really seen the point of it, okay it was supposed to run everywhere with Java Virtual Machine (like .NET Framework on some things iPaqs, Pocket PC), not give you direct access to the hardware (like .NET annoying), be royalty free (like .NET Runtime). So all in all it has been replaced has it not (discussion in a Pub with Geeky friends led to "Why the ***** would you use Java, C# pretty much the same plus you can blame Microsharft when it goes wrong!) Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago... Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
glennPattonWork wrote:
Java...I have never really seen the point of it
I never saw the point of languages like COBOL either but for a time that was where the jobs were.
glennPattonWork wrote:
So all in all it has been replaced
Absolutely no evidence of that. Looks to be as popular as ever. Note of course that C is still popular too. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html[^]
glennPattonWork wrote:
Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago
I know a programmer that died but I don't think I would use that to generalize that all programmers have died.
glennPattonWork wrote:
whats it unique selling point any one
Whats the unique selling point of C# or C++?
-
Ten years ago my mother called me once and was talking to me about Java. Thats how big the Java (SUN) marketing machine was !!!! I never liked it much after that ! It was insane ... Everyone was talking about it but you COULDN"T GIVE AWAY java apps back then. No one wanted it. It was pretty bad...Java fan boys were everywhere. I use to piss them off every now and then and talk about C++ and even Visual Basic out-performed it. LOL .. It was fun ! However, I am hearing from reliable sources that on the Android it is pretty sweet ..
================================================== --I am the STIG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UBX wrote:
and talk about C++ and even Visual Basic out-performed it.
Myself I implement business functionality which involves servers and the performance bottlenecks from them are always related to requirements, architecture and design. One can achieve orders of magnitude of performance by adjusting those. One can't do that by language choice (based of course on standard business languages and general business domains.) Of course trivial language benchmarks have nothing to do with performance in large enterprise systems. And in case there is any confusion I spent more than decade working in C++ including extensive measured profiling of applications written in it.
-
I used to work at a company that sold LARGE printers ($250k+ for a small one) and they used Java for the UI on the printer itself. I asked why they wanted to use Java there and the manager's answer was because if we change the hardware then the Java will still work. The part that the managers did not realize was that the printer was using a version of Solaris that had a custom kernel to talk and control the hardware. Changing the printer to anything else would be massive work, so the entire idea that they could change it to something else and the app would just work was kinda funny. I pointed this out and they didn't have an answer for it.
Steve Maier
Steve Maier wrote:
I pointed this out and they didn't have an answer for it.
I have worked in many languages including java, C++ and C#. And worked at many companies. There was exactly one company that had a real reason for choosing the language that they did. And that choice had nothing to do with technical merit but was instead based on a marketing decision (and a reasonable one at that.) Doesn't mean that I haven't been told many times that a certain language was choosen for technical reasons. But the reasons always really resolved down to subjective preferences.
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
The biggest problem with Java was performance,
Versus what and in what context? Having spent 15 years (or longer?) writing servers the performance problems I have encountered have been due to requirements, architecture and design. And none of those have anything to do with language. And given that I have been doing java and C# for years and spent many years in C++ I do have some experience in those languages. And excluding some very specific problem domains I have never read anything that suggested that my experience is atypical - most performance problems are related to things beside language.
Until Java 1.5 & 1.6, Java was a snail, compared with C++, for example. There are tons of sites that show benchmarks. A good upshot of that is that it encouraged people to spend more effort on optimising code.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
PROGRAM_ID. WHAT A BORING LOAD OF ELEPHANT DROPPINGS.
AUTHOR. A POTENTIAL SUICIDE.Almost fun, wasn't it? ;)
One of these days I'm going to think of a really clever signature.
Not bad for the times and for the tasks it was designed for. I don't think I ever put anything in IDENTIFICATION DIVISION except the PROGRAM-ID. The idea that in the CONFIGURATION DIVISION, you could specify source and target computers was an idea before its time. Even for today. Unless there were cross-compilers for every computer on every make of computers, that was useless. By the way, I always thought RPG stood for READ, PRINT, GO BACK; a throwback to its derivation from the wired-program accounting machines such as the IBM 407. :laugh: Some salesman named it Report Program Generator and people bought into that!
-
More importantly most job postings are for java (excluding an odd uptick in C) and that hasn't changed much for many years. http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html[^]
Most in demand or hardest to find resources? There is a difference...
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
-
Java...I have never really seen the point of it, okay it was supposed to run everywhere with Java Virtual Machine (like .NET Framework on some things iPaqs, Pocket PC), not give you direct access to the hardware (like .NET annoying), be royalty free (like .NET Runtime). So all in all it has been replaced has it not (discussion in a Pub with Geeky friends led to "Why the ***** would you use Java, C# pretty much the same plus you can blame Microsharft when it goes wrong!) Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago... Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
Where was dotNet in 1998? Ever hear of MS Java or J-sharp?
Basic history:
MS saw popularity of Java rising.
MS products at the time were VB or else VS C++/MFC
MS tried the embrace, extend, extinguish recipe with Java 1.1,
but Sun sued them over changes and additions MS added to Java
MS stopped their Java implementations at 1.1 as part of a settlement and
agreed to support Sun's applet plugins better in IE.
MS still saw the benefit of the technology, so they switched all of their
Java/VM efforts into dotNET/C# to directly compete with Java.
Look at the original dotNET APIs vs. Java APIs at the time. 1:1 correlation.
Meanwhile, Sun had become too content with the Java 1.2 spec. They thought they
were done!
dotNET caught up to Java and passed it up in terms of functionality.
Sun grudgingly started adding things like generics and enums which they originally
said they would NEVER add.
Thank goodness for the competition or Java 1.2 might have been the last Java version!Reasons for using Java:
It was the best choice in 1998, 1999, etc.
Many Java tools have had hot code replace since 1999. (Huge time savings!)
It is still a good choice today. (Still best for our product)
It is so universal, that there is TONS of free, open Java source out there.
It is multiplatform. (Yes. with no recompilation, it runs on Windows, Mac, Linux)
It was and still is browser deployable.
Silverlight apps are just Java Applets reworked. (Admit it!)
Java Applets will keep working,
but it looks like MS is already trying to kill Silverlight.
Browser deployments of Java can still provide more consistent behavior
cross browser than JavaScript/HTML5.
Java+Eclipse allows for 25,000+ source file recompiles in 10 minutes,
of course, good incremental compiling is
normally subsecond to compile and hot replace
true databases of workspaces/solutions, etc. As far as I can tell,
VS looks like it still scans files for references.
It has been really stable. Code compiled against Java 1.2 12 years ago should still
run fine with 1.7.
If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time MS technology
for database access has changed, how many times would you have done this?NOTE: You should never let any untrusted site run ActiveX, Java, JavaScript, etc. in your browser, EVER! Why did Microsoft have to add the ActiveX kill bits, etc
-
At least .NET doesn't scream at you "I want to update" every hour on the hour. Or at least it seemed to whenever I had the JVM installed. Don't anymore, and avoid anything that wants it.
Ideological Purity is no substitute for being able to stick your thumb down a pipe to stop the water
:thumbsup:
CPallini wrote:
You cannot argue with agile people so just take the extreme approach and shoot him. :Smile:
-
Java...I have never really seen the point of it, okay it was supposed to run everywhere with Java Virtual Machine (like .NET Framework on some things iPaqs, Pocket PC), not give you direct access to the hardware (like .NET annoying), be royalty free (like .NET Runtime). So all in all it has been replaced has it not (discussion in a Pub with Geeky friends led to "Why the ***** would you use Java, C# pretty much the same plus you can blame Microsharft when it goes wrong!) Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago... Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
Actually there are some enterprise frameworks in Java. In general, they are huge structures, used for big projects, with extreme emphasis on modularity and design patterns. So you don't actually "choose" to do Java: it has been already decided for you in the structure maintaining those systems. You can find a lot of that in telecommunications and public institutions. On the other hand, I've seen very few new projects actually being done in Java. Despite the strengths of the community, Java as a language has remained behind the times (the language itself has nothing like dynamic types, LINQ, functions, type inference or async, which make in most cases half of the design patterns obsolete or transparent) and ends up requiring double the code for most tasks. By the time Java 8 will be adopted for real projects (ie all your components will have updated their API etc), it will have become a dinosaur, like COBOL. It's actually in free fall in the Tiobe Index[^].
-
Where was dotNet in 1998? Ever hear of MS Java or J-sharp?
Basic history:
MS saw popularity of Java rising.
MS products at the time were VB or else VS C++/MFC
MS tried the embrace, extend, extinguish recipe with Java 1.1,
but Sun sued them over changes and additions MS added to Java
MS stopped their Java implementations at 1.1 as part of a settlement and
agreed to support Sun's applet plugins better in IE.
MS still saw the benefit of the technology, so they switched all of their
Java/VM efforts into dotNET/C# to directly compete with Java.
Look at the original dotNET APIs vs. Java APIs at the time. 1:1 correlation.
Meanwhile, Sun had become too content with the Java 1.2 spec. They thought they
were done!
dotNET caught up to Java and passed it up in terms of functionality.
Sun grudgingly started adding things like generics and enums which they originally
said they would NEVER add.
Thank goodness for the competition or Java 1.2 might have been the last Java version!Reasons for using Java:
It was the best choice in 1998, 1999, etc.
Many Java tools have had hot code replace since 1999. (Huge time savings!)
It is still a good choice today. (Still best for our product)
It is so universal, that there is TONS of free, open Java source out there.
It is multiplatform. (Yes. with no recompilation, it runs on Windows, Mac, Linux)
It was and still is browser deployable.
Silverlight apps are just Java Applets reworked. (Admit it!)
Java Applets will keep working,
but it looks like MS is already trying to kill Silverlight.
Browser deployments of Java can still provide more consistent behavior
cross browser than JavaScript/HTML5.
Java+Eclipse allows for 25,000+ source file recompiles in 10 minutes,
of course, good incremental compiling is
normally subsecond to compile and hot replace
true databases of workspaces/solutions, etc. As far as I can tell,
VS looks like it still scans files for references.
It has been really stable. Code compiled against Java 1.2 12 years ago should still
run fine with 1.7.
If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time MS technology
for database access has changed, how many times would you have done this?NOTE: You should never let any untrusted site run ActiveX, Java, JavaScript, etc. in your browser, EVER! Why did Microsoft have to add the ActiveX kill bits, etc
"Java Applets will keep working". Actually the amount of people who have Java active on their browser right now is smaller than those who have Silverlight (and this is really bad, when most people move towards HTML5). It's slow, it has been bashed for YEARS for the security failings (while Silverlight had almost none). "Code compiled against Java 1.2 12 years ago should still run fine with 1.7." I cannot count the number of projects I've seen which have been stack in an obscure minor version of java (as in 1.5.21, and not .22 or later) because one of their libraries breaks if you upgrade. I've never seen such a major problem with .NET. But I CAN count the number of projects in Java 1.7 I've seen in production. Zero. " If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time MS technology for database access has changed, how many times would you have done this?" If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time a community project à la mode offered a new way of database access, how many times would you have done this
-
Java...I have never really seen the point of it, okay it was supposed to run everywhere with Java Virtual Machine (like .NET Framework on some things iPaqs, Pocket PC), not give you direct access to the hardware (like .NET annoying), be royalty free (like .NET Runtime). So all in all it has been replaced has it not (discussion in a Pub with Geeky friends led to "Why the ***** would you use Java, C# pretty much the same plus you can blame Microsharft when it goes wrong!) Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago... Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
I've never touched Java, but the thread has aroused my curiosity. And I've got a long weekend. Downloading the NetBeans IDE.
XAlan Burkhart
-
Java...I have never really seen the point of it, okay it was supposed to run everywhere with Java Virtual Machine (like .NET Framework on some things iPaqs, Pocket PC), not give you direct access to the hardware (like .NET annoying), be royalty free (like .NET Runtime). So all in all it has been replaced has it not (discussion in a Pub with Geeky friends led to "Why the ***** would you use Java, C# pretty much the same plus you can blame Microsharft when it goes wrong!) Plus all the hotshot Java people I know (2) came from C++ to Java back C++ a few years ago... Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
If you're on android or linux, it gives you a UI what other popular language does that?
-
glennPattonWork wrote:
Are there features of Java that aren't anywhere else, whats it unique selling point any one (don't want to start a war just interested.)
Java was thought at school, even before .NET existed. Before Java, all languages in school were company-agnostic, they'd only use languages that weren't bound to a certain company. It was pushed by the schools, and now it is slowly being replaced by .NET; the platform provides a better integration with the rest of the ecosystem (Office, DB-server), but (logically) it remains popular in the places that have invested much into their Java-systems.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
In the begining there was Java and it was good, then came .NET and it was better... :laugh: Seriously, i used to use Java for everything, mostly because that's the language that i was taught at school, right now i only use it if i want cross plataform compatibility in an application (mostly Windows-Linux compatibility) or if a library that does something amazing is only found there, and i believe that its strong point right now, aside from the huge enterprise applications based on Java, is cross plataform compatibility (when you don't like/hate HTML and Javascript).
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
-
I used to work at a company that sold LARGE printers ($250k+ for a small one) and they used Java for the UI on the printer itself. I asked why they wanted to use Java there and the manager's answer was because if we change the hardware then the Java will still work. The part that the managers did not realize was that the printer was using a version of Solaris that had a custom kernel to talk and control the hardware. Changing the printer to anything else would be massive work, so the entire idea that they could change it to something else and the app would just work was kinda funny. I pointed this out and they didn't have an answer for it.
Steve Maier
You asked, why they used Java for the UI, and your manager was right if they changed the printer the Java part (the UI) will still work, about everything else, i assume, he didn't care. :-D
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
-
"Java Applets will keep working". Actually the amount of people who have Java active on their browser right now is smaller than those who have Silverlight (and this is really bad, when most people move towards HTML5). It's slow, it has been bashed for YEARS for the security failings (while Silverlight had almost none). "Code compiled against Java 1.2 12 years ago should still run fine with 1.7." I cannot count the number of projects I've seen which have been stack in an obscure minor version of java (as in 1.5.21, and not .22 or later) because one of their libraries breaks if you upgrade. I've never seen such a major problem with .NET. But I CAN count the number of projects in Java 1.7 I've seen in production. Zero. " If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time MS technology for database access has changed, how many times would you have done this?" If you adopted (and reworked your app) each time a community project à la mode offered a new way of database access, how many times would you have done this
tecgoblin wrote:
I cannot count the number of projects I've seen which have been stack in an obscure minor version of java (as in 1.5.21, and not .22 or later) because one of their libraries breaks if you upgrade.
Well, that's what happen when you use undocumented features, and that happens in every language.
tecgoblin wrote:
I've never seen such a major problem with .NET.
That's because your computer have around 4 versions of the .NET Framework installed and Windows manages (juggles) which one you use behind the scenes. But uninstall the .NET Framework 2.0 and try running an app that targets it in the .NET Framework 4.0 and you will see that Java problems seems like a walk in the park.
tecgoblin wrote:
But I CAN count the number of projects in Java 1.7 I've seen in production. Zero.
If you don't see them, doesn't mean they're not there, but anyway Java 1.7 is pretty young (less than a year), and so i can say the same from projects in production in the .NET Framework 4.0 or 4.5.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
-
In the begining there was Java and it was good, then came .NET and it was better... :laugh: Seriously, i used to use Java for everything, mostly because that's the language that i was taught at school, right now i only use it if i want cross plataform compatibility in an application (mostly Windows-Linux compatibility) or if a library that does something amazing is only found there, and i believe that its strong point right now, aside from the huge enterprise applications based on Java, is cross plataform compatibility (when you don't like/hate HTML and Javascript).
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
Hehe, talking about irony; cross-compatibility is my reason to use .NET, as the assemblies are binary compatible between systems. I can compile on Windows under VS, copy to USB, and run it under Mono. Some third-party libraries work, some don't (heavy interop etc.) I'm currently developing targetting Ubuntu (desktop), and before that Debian (Raspberry Pi) Java will stay around, and we'll keep seeing new versions. Good to have some competition, and good to have choices.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
-
tecgoblin wrote:
I cannot count the number of projects I've seen which have been stack in an obscure minor version of java (as in 1.5.21, and not .22 or later) because one of their libraries breaks if you upgrade.
Well, that's what happen when you use undocumented features, and that happens in every language.
tecgoblin wrote:
I've never seen such a major problem with .NET.
That's because your computer have around 4 versions of the .NET Framework installed and Windows manages (juggles) which one you use behind the scenes. But uninstall the .NET Framework 2.0 and try running an app that targets it in the .NET Framework 4.0 and you will see that Java problems seems like a walk in the park.
tecgoblin wrote:
But I CAN count the number of projects in Java 1.7 I've seen in production. Zero.
If you don't see them, doesn't mean they're not there, but anyway Java 1.7 is pretty young (less than a year), and so i can say the same from projects in production in the .NET Framework 4.0 or 4.5.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
RafagaX wrote:
Well, that's what happen when you use undocumented features, and that happens in every language.
I don't refer to undocumented features. In most cases it's a dependency, which, without you knowing it, uses a weird workaround or something that later was considered a security breach and has been patched. It can happen in any community, but it's characteristic of Java projects (due to their size and the fact that you're greatly encouraged to swap official packages for community projects - which has of course it's good side).
RafagaX wrote:
That's because your computer have around 4 versions of the .NET Framework installed and Windows manages (juggles) which one you use behind the scenes.
Actually 3 (1.1, 2.0 and 4.0). There aren't 4 out there. Windows comes with one of them pre-installed and it might download a second one if you need it. I don't see this as a problem. It's almost transparent to the user, and it just works.
RafagaX wrote:
i can say the same from projects in production in the .NET Framework 4.0 or 4.5.
I've worked in both java and c# shops (and in many cases mixed ones) for the last 2 years. I haven't seen a single project approaching release on Java 7 (3/4 actually are still on Java 5), while I am already at my third one on .NET 4 (we even have in beta one in ASP.NET MVC 4, which hit release status a month ago). One of those was a military project. The point was not to say that .NET is actually better at this, but just to refute your points about "stability". Java has managed at the same time to be stagnant as a language for the last 5 years, trying to keep things stable, but in the end there's so little gain by new versions of Java that it's difficult to convince the management that you should put the effort to migrate a project to newest versions.
