Finding good staff....
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: where are you getting your candidates from? Mostly from agencies... In fact they are so starved of placements that our MD spends a significant portion of his day dealing with them. I think a lot has to do with the company... I used to work for Sony and was never short of candidates. But since moving to a smaller company I have noticed the difference. Its like we get the scraps from the big corporates. Its a shame because (unlike the big companies) there are no fixed ways on how to do things, we get cool toys and the teleworking is excellent. Plus no-one pressues me to be a manager if I happen to be good a coding. James.
I sounds like a good environment, so well done on that front. :) That being the case, I wonder if the problem's monetary. What sort of salaries are you offering? PRP bonuses and relocation costs for those who have to move can make a huge difference to whether candidates come forward too. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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David Wulff wrote: Here's an idea. Unless the candidate is talking about something else that is interesting to you from an assesment point of view, interrupt and ask them the question again from a slightly different angle. Oh I do regularly... But I get tired of asking 'can you give me a specific example instead of a general reply?' You see, we do competancy based interviews so the whole premise is based around the candidate telling us a specific example from their past that shows they have the quality we are looking for. I describe in detail about how I can only take specific examples plus even give them a list of competancies and respective descriptions. You would be surprised how many times you can go around this loop
do { printf("Give me a specific example when you had to communicate a complex idea to someone"); } while (answer == "Well, I would.....")James.Fair enough. Well in that case I would start the interview with the line: Hi [candidate name] my name is James and I am really not in the mood for this right now so give me any BS and you'll be out that door quicker than you can fark the chorus to "hey mr taliban give me your banana". (See the SoapBox for my definition of "to fark". The taliban song was included on an excellent flash movie that I can't seem to find again, with bush and Powel banging bongo drums.)
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Er, yes David. I interviewed you, and your understanding was far better than most. Some people had the ba11s to say "Oh yes, we did that in 2nd year". To which I felt like saying "If you ever get a job you'll be doing it for the rest of your life!". PS. Have you been contacted yet regarding the job? - Don't want to let the cat out of the bag if you don't know yet. :)
Bernhard Hofmann wrote: PS. Have you been contacted yet regarding the job? - Don't want to let the cat out of the bag if you don't know yet. Somebody has a secret to tell by the sounds of it...;) Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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I've just had to sit through another interview and listen to the candidate ignore me and answer what he he wanted instead of what I asked for. I don't know anything more about him than when he walked in... Where are all the good developers? I see lots of good articles and discussion on this site so they must exist. I don't suppose there is a forum for advertising positions? We are about to get funding and will be expanding a lot. I can't even tempt the good guys out of the woodwork by telling them about the cool C++ and .NET development we do. If there is a forum for this then can someone point me to it. If not, you live in the UK (we are in Hampshire) and are a little curious, then get in touch. James.
There is a Job Advertisement section on Code Project. The link for it is near the bottom of the left menubar under the "Other Stuff" heading.
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I sounds like a good environment, so well done on that front. :) That being the case, I wonder if the problem's monetary. What sort of salaries are you offering? PRP bonuses and relocation costs for those who have to move can make a huge difference to whether candidates come forward too. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: where are you getting your candidates from? Mostly from agencies... In fact they are so starved of placements that our MD spends a significant portion of his day dealing with them. I think a lot has to do with the company... I used to work for Sony and was never short of candidates. But since moving to a smaller company I have noticed the difference. Its like we get the scraps from the big corporates. Its a shame because (unlike the big companies) there are no fixed ways on how to do things, we get cool toys and the teleworking is excellent. Plus no-one pressues me to be a manager if I happen to be good a coding. James.
If the 'working from home' is a full-time possibility rather than an 'occasional nicety' then I am definately interested. I've been searching desperately for a new job for the last 6 months but to no avail, mainly due to having to deal with useless agencies. Some of my work can be found here and on my own website: http://www.salamandersoftware.biz[^]. If that's got you interested then let me know I can send you an up to date CV. Derek Lakin. I wish I was what I thought I was when I wished I was what I am. Salamander Software Ltd.
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Er, yes David. I interviewed you, and your understanding was far better than most. Some people had the ba11s to say "Oh yes, we did that in 2nd year". To which I felt like saying "If you ever get a job you'll be doing it for the rest of your life!". PS. Have you been contacted yet regarding the job? - Don't want to let the cat out of the bag if you don't know yet. :)
Bernhard Hofmann wrote: your understanding was far better than most So people keep telling me, but I always find it quite astonishing to hear because I'm kind of stuck in the mindset "well d'uh of course". I suppose everybody is like that? ** Dave looks nervously around the room but everyone is staring at their feet ** Bernhard Hofmann wrote: Some people had the ba11s to say "Oh yes, we did that in 2nd year". To which I felt like saying "If you ever get a job you'll be doing it for the rest of your life!". Whilst I'll never belittle anyone who has the means or the drive to go to university it seems that people can be qualified up to the eyeballs but not have the skills to put it into practise. I, personally, chose to take the practical experience route when I left college, with the option of picking up a university degree or two in my mid twenties should the need arise. I've always counted on people seeing a person's potential rather than their achievements. Of course you get those people who are degreed and skillfull, but forget about them else my argument wont make sense. :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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If the 'working from home' is a full-time possibility rather than an 'occasional nicety' then I am definately interested. I've been searching desperately for a new job for the last 6 months but to no avail, mainly due to having to deal with useless agencies. Some of my work can be found here and on my own website: http://www.salamandersoftware.biz[^]. If that's got you interested then let me know I can send you an up to date CV. Derek Lakin. I wish I was what I thought I was when I wished I was what I am. Salamander Software Ltd.
Derek Lakin wrote: If the 'working from home' is a full-time possibility rather than an 'occasional nicety' then I am definately interested. Actually, its a bit of a necessity because if everyone turned up for work on the same day then there wouldn't be enough desks. We have grown in the last few months and will be moving to new offices soon. When things are more normal it depends on the stage of the project - at the start I tend to be in the office (where there are plenty of whiteboards), when coding I'm always at home (although I try to do at least one day a week in the office) and and the end I'm either in the office or on customer site. The only two guidelines are: 1. Don't let communication suffer 2. Don't miss your deadline But there is a loophole with guideline 2: if you communicate your lateness early on then the deadline may be moved. James.
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There are plenty of jobs further south but to be honest, I don't want to go there. To get a good location costs rise drastically so disposable income drops. Now move north and its much more of an employers market :-D Elaine (fluffy tigress emoticon) The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote: Now move north and its much more of an employers market Indeed! Why is it that employers prefer to locate in places no one in his right mind would want to live? I've heard a number of excuses, but none that make any sense. I can understand that companies with hardware to ship need good infrastructure, but software companies don't have that excuse. They locate in large, crowded, expensive urban centers, then whine about the costs of doing business and the inability to hire good people! As much as I joke about this place's awful climate, some 500K to 1M people choose to come here every year to vacation, so my tastes are obviously not universal. An employer could build an 80,000 sf building here and own it, for what it would cost to rent one for a month in Los Angeles. And employess making $50K a year here would live like kings, rather than as paupers in CA. It makes no sense at all... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
Derek Lakin wrote: If the 'working from home' is a full-time possibility rather than an 'occasional nicety' then I am definately interested. Actually, its a bit of a necessity because if everyone turned up for work on the same day then there wouldn't be enough desks. We have grown in the last few months and will be moving to new offices soon. When things are more normal it depends on the stage of the project - at the start I tend to be in the office (where there are plenty of whiteboards), when coding I'm always at home (although I try to do at least one day a week in the office) and and the end I'm either in the office or on customer site. The only two guidelines are: 1. Don't let communication suffer 2. Don't miss your deadline But there is a loophole with guideline 2: if you communicate your lateness early on then the deadline may be moved. James.
Sounds like a perfect work environment! Lucky devil... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003 -
Sounds like a perfect work environment! Lucky devil... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003The only drawback is having to work.... :) Seriously though, I was around when the company started and the intention was always to have what we call a 'Californian' attitute to software (+ free 'soda' and good coffee). Its very relaxed and good fun but extremely challenging work. A couple of people have joined us and then decided that they couldn't keep up with the pace. James.
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There is a Job Advertisement section on Code Project. The link for it is near the bottom of the left menubar under the "Other Stuff" heading.
Code Project Job Advertisements[^]
Nick Parker
The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Fair enough. Well in that case I would start the interview with the line: Hi [candidate name] my name is James and I am really not in the mood for this right now so give me any BS and you'll be out that door quicker than you can fark the chorus to "hey mr taliban give me your banana". (See the SoapBox for my definition of "to fark". The taliban song was included on an excellent flash movie that I can't seem to find again, with bush and Powel banging bongo drums.)
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Thats the kind of interviewer who would make me want the job ! :-D Elaine The tigress is here :-D
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I've just had to sit through another interview and listen to the candidate ignore me and answer what he he wanted instead of what I asked for. I don't know anything more about him than when he walked in... Where are all the good developers? I see lots of good articles and discussion on this site so they must exist. I don't suppose there is a forum for advertising positions? We are about to get funding and will be expanding a lot. I can't even tempt the good guys out of the woodwork by telling them about the cool C++ and .NET development we do. If there is a forum for this then can someone point me to it. If not, you live in the UK (we are in Hampshire) and are a little curious, then get in touch. James.
James, modify your original post to give us a link to your website with the job details etc... Surprised it isn't there already ! Elaine The tigress is here :-D
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I've just had to sit through another interview and listen to the candidate ignore me and answer what he he wanted instead of what I asked for. I don't know anything more about him than when he walked in... Where are all the good developers? I see lots of good articles and discussion on this site so they must exist. I don't suppose there is a forum for advertising positions? We are about to get funding and will be expanding a lot. I can't even tempt the good guys out of the woodwork by telling them about the cool C++ and .NET development we do. If there is a forum for this then can someone point me to it. If not, you live in the UK (we are in Hampshire) and are a little curious, then get in touch. James.
Maybe you're just asking the wrong questions. As an experienced programmer, I often find the "final exam" style of interview questions to be extremely uncomfortable. That is an interview where someone who does not have all that much experience themselves, just starts asking you basic questions off a sheet of paper. There are any number of basic concepts which I might no longer have the ability to immediately articulate a textbook answer for. Does that mean that I do not know the concept? No. It just means that I have conceptualized it to the point that it is no longer something I think about in a verbal way, hence have difficulty articualting coherently on the spur of the moment. When interviewing an experienced programmer,you probably should not ask basic questions from your last final exam in college. You should not have a sheet of paper containing questions which you yourself do not know the answers for. What you should do is find out the nature of the kind of work they have done. Find out what problems they confronted and how they solved them. Give them an example of a problem they might confront while working for you, and ask them how they would solve it. Talk about programming philosophies to get a feel for their depth of interest in thier proclaimed area of expertise. For example, rather than asking someone direct questions about COM, just strike up a conversation about COM. If they can have a lengthy conversation about it, you will find out far more about their knowledge, their experience, and thier interest in it than if you asked them to regurgitate all the IDispatch methods. Anyone who has actually bothered to memorize all that crap is probably more of a memorizer than a programmer anyway. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Maybe you're just asking the wrong questions. As an experienced programmer, I often find the "final exam" style of interview questions to be extremely uncomfortable. That is an interview where someone who does not have all that much experience themselves, just starts asking you basic questions off a sheet of paper. There are any number of basic concepts which I might no longer have the ability to immediately articulate a textbook answer for. Does that mean that I do not know the concept? No. It just means that I have conceptualized it to the point that it is no longer something I think about in a verbal way, hence have difficulty articualting coherently on the spur of the moment. When interviewing an experienced programmer,you probably should not ask basic questions from your last final exam in college. You should not have a sheet of paper containing questions which you yourself do not know the answers for. What you should do is find out the nature of the kind of work they have done. Find out what problems they confronted and how they solved them. Give them an example of a problem they might confront while working for you, and ask them how they would solve it. Talk about programming philosophies to get a feel for their depth of interest in thier proclaimed area of expertise. For example, rather than asking someone direct questions about COM, just strike up a conversation about COM. If they can have a lengthy conversation about it, you will find out far more about their knowledge, their experience, and thier interest in it than if you asked them to regurgitate all the IDispatch methods. Anyone who has actually bothered to memorize all that crap is probably more of a memorizer than a programmer anyway. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
I try to never ask questions that require book knowledge. I care more about communication, planning, innovation and initiative so try and get the candidate to tell me about specific situations when they have shown these skills. Note: not hypothetical questions like 'What would you do in this situation?'. We also do a coding question e.g. reverse a string in place. This allows me to see how they approach a problem. Finally, there is a design question where I role play a client with a set of requirements. When they have asked enough questions to understand the problem I leave them on their own with a cup of coffee and a whiteboard for 30 mins to try and take the pressure off. Then I go back in and chat about the architecture and design they selected. The only time I ask book questions is when I recon they have stretched the truth on their resume. Something like what does keyword 'virtual' do/mean if they claim to have C++ knowledge... James.
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I've just had to sit through another interview and listen to the candidate ignore me and answer what he he wanted instead of what I asked for. I don't know anything more about him than when he walked in... Where are all the good developers? I see lots of good articles and discussion on this site so they must exist. I don't suppose there is a forum for advertising positions? We are about to get funding and will be expanding a lot. I can't even tempt the good guys out of the woodwork by telling them about the cool C++ and .NET development we do. If there is a forum for this then can someone point me to it. If not, you live in the UK (we are in Hampshire) and are a little curious, then get in touch. James.
wayward wrote: I've just had to sit through another interview and listen to the candidate ignore me and answer what he he wanted instead of what I asked for. I don't know anything more about him than when he walked in... These are the worst candidates, most of the time they're trying to hide their lack of competency. I’ve hired most candidates that knew only what they’ve put on their resume, even if that was not enough for the position, and gave some training after hiring them. wayward wrote: We are about to get funding and will be expanding a lot. I can't even tempt the good guys out of the woodwork by telling them about the cool C++ and .NET development we do. An advice, don't try to expand faster than you can. Hire a maximum of 3 programmers at a time, and evaluate them after two or three months. Wait at least two weeks before you hire more people. Keep close contact with them. This will be good both for you evaluating them and for their morale. Don’t bother evaluating someone in the first or second month of work. When you hire someone, most programmers usually do a lot more work in the first few months than they can sustain in the long term. Other programmers are a bit slow for mixing with the environment and they take one or two months for a good performance. It takes about two or three months for a programmer show his real level of work. Then, you can precisely assess his work and how effort he put on work. I see dumb people
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James, modify your original post to give us a link to your website with the job details etc... Surprised it isn't there already ! Elaine The tigress is here :-D
I wasn't sure whether or not it was akin to asking programming questions... Certainly you can check out the web site: http://www.exony.com[^]. We have moved on a bit since the website was created and its due for an upgrade... You can add things like C#, .NET to the mix of technologies. It'll take me a while to describe the type of work as we don't have job specs. When I get the chance I'll post something in the jobs area. James.
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I try to never ask questions that require book knowledge. I care more about communication, planning, innovation and initiative so try and get the candidate to tell me about specific situations when they have shown these skills. Note: not hypothetical questions like 'What would you do in this situation?'. We also do a coding question e.g. reverse a string in place. This allows me to see how they approach a problem. Finally, there is a design question where I role play a client with a set of requirements. When they have asked enough questions to understand the problem I leave them on their own with a cup of coffee and a whiteboard for 30 mins to try and take the pressure off. Then I go back in and chat about the architecture and design they selected. The only time I ask book questions is when I recon they have stretched the truth on their resume. Something like what does keyword 'virtual' do/mean if they claim to have C++ knowledge... James.
It seems your candidates find themselves in a fair and preferable interview situation. That's exactly what I would hoping for when going in an interview.
heinz r. vahlbruch
If IntelliSense doesn't have it, it ain't worth calling - Anonymous
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Maybe you're just asking the wrong questions. As an experienced programmer, I often find the "final exam" style of interview questions to be extremely uncomfortable. That is an interview where someone who does not have all that much experience themselves, just starts asking you basic questions off a sheet of paper. There are any number of basic concepts which I might no longer have the ability to immediately articulate a textbook answer for. Does that mean that I do not know the concept? No. It just means that I have conceptualized it to the point that it is no longer something I think about in a verbal way, hence have difficulty articualting coherently on the spur of the moment. When interviewing an experienced programmer,you probably should not ask basic questions from your last final exam in college. You should not have a sheet of paper containing questions which you yourself do not know the answers for. What you should do is find out the nature of the kind of work they have done. Find out what problems they confronted and how they solved them. Give them an example of a problem they might confront while working for you, and ask them how they would solve it. Talk about programming philosophies to get a feel for their depth of interest in thier proclaimed area of expertise. For example, rather than asking someone direct questions about COM, just strike up a conversation about COM. If they can have a lengthy conversation about it, you will find out far more about their knowledge, their experience, and thier interest in it than if you asked them to regurgitate all the IDispatch methods. Anyone who has actually bothered to memorize all that crap is probably more of a memorizer than a programmer anyway. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
This is a very good strategy for a conversational interview, where you can indeed find out an awful lot about someone, by responding to what they say, probing different areas, and sometimes challenging their knowledge. The added wrinkle we have is that we are supposed to ask exactly the same questions to every candidate, so that they can be evaluated "fairly" against the same criteria. That sounds great in principle, but it is highly impractical, especially in situations like you describe. Therefore, I don't provide the interview function anymore. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.