Nice Letter
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That is not even nearly what science is pursuing. Science assumes that everything is explicable without resorting to external agents, so it's incompatible with the interfering type of god that turns water into wine (or muon neutrinos into tau neutrinos :^) ), but it is entirely orthogonal to the concept of a supernatural god who sits outside the natural universe and doesn't observably affect it. That might seem like it's as good as not existing. But actually that's the entire concept of at least the Christian god: he won't show himself observably, you need Faith (always with a capital). The number of religious scientists shows that science and religion are compatible.
Oh, I whole heartedly believe that Science and religion can co-exist - my wife is a perfect example of such. But in my original statement, it was that Science is being used to try to disprove God, when frankly it has just the same ability to prove His existence as well. Hence, why the debate even exists. As for the origins of Science, originally it was to discern 'what' the world is or 'how' the world is, rather than what it is now, which is 'why' the world is. I'm referring to Science circa Newton.
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LabVIEWstuff wrote:
now stop using condoms
You're confusing Catholic dogma (which isn't Christianity), but current church 'rules' if you will.
LabVIEWstuff wrote:
tolerating homosexuals
Actually, Christianity (if you're not talking to a extremist) is about hating sin, loving the person.
LabVIEWstuff wrote:
educating girls
I can't even begin to think where this statement comes from. As the only religion I know of that doesn't support educating women, is definitely not Christianity.
OK, taking your points in order: I wasn't referring to a specific church's or religions dogma, I was using dogma in the generic sense as the set of rules layed down by any religion. But yes, the 'stop using condoms' bit was directed at the Catholic church. With regard to the 'tolerating homosexuals' point I wasn't referring to Chritianity either, but another religion altogether that has very definite views on the subject. Still, if the cap fits etc... As far as the 'educating girls' bit goes I can only assume you haven't seen the news about the Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban (and yes I know Taliban != Islam, it's just another example of people wanting to impose their view on others) for promoting education for girls? It's pretty big news in the UK. Andy B
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He's the father of chemical warfare, so could be Taliban related.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
He's the father of chemical warfare
I was hoping you either didn't know who he was, or wouldn't have the curiosity to read more of the page... :laugh:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Religion makes good people still be good people. It makes bad people much, much worse, because it gives them some justifications to hang their bad deeds and words off – for example, the Taliban, sectarian groups in Ireland or Iraq, Christian slave traders or Sri Lankan separatists. (A strong non-deic ideology can do that too, e.g. Stalin.) A very few bad people become zealous converts and become good in some ways, though they're almost always intolerant about people who don't follow the religion they've picked (e.g. any number of gay-bashing American pastors). As a net effect, it's definitely negative.
BobJanova wrote:
As a net effect, it's definitely negative.
This is where most people of faith (not just Christians) would argue you're wrong.
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ryanb31 wrote:
He's the father of chemical warfare
I was hoping you either didn't know who he was, or wouldn't have the curiosity to read more of the page... :laugh:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Oh, I whole heartedly believe that Science and religion can co-exist - my wife is a perfect example of such. But in my original statement, it was that Science is being used to try to disprove God, when frankly it has just the same ability to prove His existence as well. Hence, why the debate even exists. As for the origins of Science, originally it was to discern 'what' the world is or 'how' the world is, rather than what it is now, which is 'why' the world is. I'm referring to Science circa Newton.
I think that you might find the Greeks might have had a hand in science as well. Science predates modern religions.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Actually, medicine was as a result of Christianity*. I think its funny how people don't realize that Science was originally the desire of Christians to find out more about the world that God had created. It was only recently that people started to pervert the pursuit of Science with the pursuit of proving God doesn't exist. :) *To elaborate on this as a few have replied regarding this, I believe medicine has been expanded via Christian influences. In the end, medicine today would not be where it is without the positive influences that Christians had on it.
Andrew Rissing wrote:
medicine was as a result of Christianity
Really? No pre-christian (or non-christian) societies ever used herbal remedies for anything, or could fix injuries? Andy B
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OK, taking your points in order: I wasn't referring to a specific church's or religions dogma, I was using dogma in the generic sense as the set of rules layed down by any religion. But yes, the 'stop using condoms' bit was directed at the Catholic church. With regard to the 'tolerating homosexuals' point I wasn't referring to Chritianity either, but another religion altogether that has very definite views on the subject. Still, if the cap fits etc... As far as the 'educating girls' bit goes I can only assume you haven't seen the news about the Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban (and yes I know Taliban != Islam, it's just another example of people wanting to impose their view on others) for promoting education for girls? It's pretty big news in the UK. Andy B
I have heard of the news yes, but I assumed your thread was in general about Christianity. So, pardon me. But in general, it seems you're taking the worst part of any group and generalizing it to the whole population. There will always be flawed people, inside of religion and out. People are just not perfect, so does that make humans in general something that should be eliminated? :)
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I think that you might find the Greeks might have had a hand in science as well. Science predates modern religions.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Yes, they did and, even then, they tried to understand the world. As for the original comment made above, many of the great early scientists were staunch professors of faith - their faith spurred their desire to explore and push boundaries.
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I think it was the next sentence after the one you referred too. But that was it. I wasn't interested enough to keep going. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
I read an article about him that said he did all of that military research because of the anti-Semitism that was already present in Germany at that time. He felt like he needed to prove his allegiance to his country. He was also involved in the development of Zyklon B, originally a pesticide, which was then used by the Nazis in the Holocaust. But, I think if you only look at the numbers, the good from his research has outweighed the bad, but that still doesn't absolve him of his sins against humanity.
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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Andrew Rissing wrote:
medicine was as a result of Christianity
Really? No pre-christian (or non-christian) societies ever used herbal remedies for anything, or could fix injuries? Andy B
The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches.
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Yes, they did and, even then, they tried to understand the world. As for the original comment made above, many of the great early scientists were staunch professors of faith - their faith spurred their desire to explore and push boundaries.
Some, not all. You can't actually quantify it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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BobJanova wrote:
As a net effect, it's definitely negative.
This is where most people of faith (not just Christians) would argue you're wrong.
They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
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Dear Religion, This week I safely dropped a human being from space; you shot a 14 year old girl in the head for wanting an education. Yours, Science.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Taliban is not a religion. It's a quasi-governmental terrorist group. Your post is more suited to the Soapbox.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
Some, not all. You can't actually quantify it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches.
Indeed they were - ancient Egyptian temples, predating christianity by centuries :) .
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They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
BobJanova wrote:
Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately.
I could argue both ways on that. Having not lived a faith filled life would make it hard to see why it would be beneficial at all.
BobJanova wrote:
so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
Fine by me.
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Indeed they were - ancient Egyptian temples, predating christianity by centuries :) .
And Vikings discovered America first...so? But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians.
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13 with at least one who never believed in god? You'll have to do better than that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
BobJanova wrote:
They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement
And neither are you. Just because you're outside those groups doesn't mean you aren't biased. You're just biased in a different direction.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein