Nice Letter
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Andrew Rissing wrote:
medicine was as a result of Christianity
Really? No pre-christian (or non-christian) societies ever used herbal remedies for anything, or could fix injuries? Andy B
The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches.
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Yes, they did and, even then, they tried to understand the world. As for the original comment made above, many of the great early scientists were staunch professors of faith - their faith spurred their desire to explore and push boundaries.
Some, not all. You can't actually quantify it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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BobJanova wrote:
As a net effect, it's definitely negative.
This is where most people of faith (not just Christians) would argue you're wrong.
They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
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Dear Religion, This week I safely dropped a human being from space; you shot a 14 year old girl in the head for wanting an education. Yours, Science.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Taliban is not a religion. It's a quasi-governmental terrorist group. Your post is more suited to the Soapbox.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
Some, not all. You can't actually quantify it.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches.
Indeed they were - ancient Egyptian temples, predating christianity by centuries :) .
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They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
BobJanova wrote:
Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately.
I could argue both ways on that. Having not lived a faith filled life would make it hard to see why it would be beneficial at all.
BobJanova wrote:
so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
Fine by me.
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Indeed they were - ancient Egyptian temples, predating christianity by centuries :) .
And Vikings discovered America first...so? But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians.
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13 with at least one who never believed in god? You'll have to do better than that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement, though. And considering how many of them would claim that it's only their particular religion that has the virtuous effects, it's quite clear it's just simple tribalism. Being outside all these groups makes it possible to look at them more dispassionately. To make a serious debate of this is Soapbox territory, and I don't like to go in there from work, so let's just agree to disagree at this point in the thread.
BobJanova wrote:
They're hardly in a position to make an unbiased judgement
And neither are you. Just because you're outside those groups doesn't mean you aren't biased. You're just biased in a different direction.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
13 with at least one who never believed in god? You'll have to do better than that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
I did say a 'start' didn't I. ;)
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I did say a 'start' didn't I. ;)
But it's incorrect so not a good start, at all.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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And Vikings discovered America first...so? But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians.
History of hospitals[^]. Methinks you have a particularly narrow view of the world.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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History of hospitals[^]. Methinks you have a particularly narrow view of the world.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
My point rests within your own link: "It can be said, however, that the modern concept of a hospital dates from 331 ce when Roman emperor Constantine I (Constantine the Great), having been converted to Christianity, abolished all pagan hospitals and thus created the opportunity for a new start. Until that time disease had isolated the sufferer from the community. The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to the members of the community, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church." Thanks. :D
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And Vikings discovered America first...so? But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians.
Your original claim was that 'medicine' was a result of Christianity i.e. no Christianity, no medicine, which is patently untrue. Medicine would've moved on, developed and expanded whether Christianity existed or not, maybe not as quickly in the early days, maybe. I'm interested to know (genuinely) your opinion on stem-cell research, which would appear to me to be an area of huge medical potential, but is subject to censure by various religious bodies. Andy B
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My point rests within your own link: "It can be said, however, that the modern concept of a hospital dates from 331 ce when Roman emperor Constantine I (Constantine the Great), having been converted to Christianity, abolished all pagan hospitals and thus created the opportunity for a new start. Until that time disease had isolated the sufferer from the community. The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to the members of the community, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church." Thanks. :D
That wasn't your original point and isn't even this one. You can't chop and change.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Quite a generalization but I do see your point. Don't forget though, every day there is more humanitarian aid by religious people than science ever offers. Just saying.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
ryanb31 wrote:
Don't forget though, every day there is more humanitarian aid by religious people than science ever offers. Just saying.
How does that even make sense? There is more humanitarian aid from religious people than Theology ever offers. Just saying. ;P
Curvature of the Mind now with 3D
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That wasn't your original point and isn't even this one. You can't chop and change.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
I wrote:
The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches. But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians. "It can be said, however, that the modern concept of a hospital dates from 331 ce when Roman emperor Constantine I (Constantine the Great), having been converted to Christianity, abolished all pagan hospitals and thus created the opportunity for a new start. Until that time disease had isolated the sufferer from the community. The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to the members of the community, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church."
I haven't changed my position. Yes, other places may have been tending to the sick, but the Christian faith made hospitals what we know of them today. You know humanitarian - prior to HMO's and the like.
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I wrote:
The first hospitals (formalized places of medicine) were founded by churches. But in the end, the notion of a hospital was popularized and expanded via Christians. "It can be said, however, that the modern concept of a hospital dates from 331 ce when Roman emperor Constantine I (Constantine the Great), having been converted to Christianity, abolished all pagan hospitals and thus created the opportunity for a new start. Until that time disease had isolated the sufferer from the community. The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to the members of the community, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church."
I haven't changed my position. Yes, other places may have been tending to the sick, but the Christian faith made hospitals what we know of them today. You know humanitarian - prior to HMO's and the like.
As long as you are happy with that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Your original claim was that 'medicine' was a result of Christianity i.e. no Christianity, no medicine, which is patently untrue. Medicine would've moved on, developed and expanded whether Christianity existed or not, maybe not as quickly in the early days, maybe. I'm interested to know (genuinely) your opinion on stem-cell research, which would appear to me to be an area of huge medical potential, but is subject to censure by various religious bodies. Andy B
Yes. I admit the statement was a bit lacking on details, but no I don't believe medicine would not have occurred without Christianity. I do believe though it was reinforced and expanded due to Christian efforts. As for stem-cell research, I haven't personally delved into the subject much. As with most things, opening new doors opens new benefits and new perils - a Pandora's box of sorts. For certain though, it isn't something we can legislate away - someone is bound to do research into it regardless. The only good way to handle it is to at least provide guidelines in how the research obtains the stem cells. As for anything else, I'd have to do more research.