M$ - new API's with no new offering in terms of capability and missed out on rise of smartphones
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sorry Marc, I do appreciate ability to code up UI declaratively, I do think it's cool. This said, you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one! The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
dev
So you're not saying that the shift to WPF wasn't major, just that the shift wasn't worth the higher learning curve? I imagine that depends on the developer. WPF is insanely powerful, and I wouldn't even imagine doing in Windows Forms the things you can do in WPF (such as this, which includes a tab control with some of the tabs containing expanders that have other controls).
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So you're not saying that the shift to WPF wasn't major, just that the shift wasn't worth the higher learning curve? I imagine that depends on the developer. WPF is insanely powerful, and I wouldn't even imagine doing in Windows Forms the things you can do in WPF (such as this, which includes a tab control with some of the tabs containing expanders that have other controls).
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All those technologies you listed still work. I use WinForms and raw sockets for the most part because they do what I want. If you have to move then ask questions of the people that mandate that.
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sorry Marc, I do appreciate ability to code up UI declaratively, I do think it's cool. This said, you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one! The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
dev
devvvy wrote:
you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one!
Well, that's a good point - one of the reasons I haven't dived into WPF is because of the learning curve and the lack of needing to learn WPF. I would have to say though, that to do anything useful in WinForms, one has to learn about data triggers, binding, properties, etc., and so ultimately has a learning curve associated with it. Personally, some of the syntax in WPF is just bizarre, which has been an obstacle to my learning it. I've done similar things with backing classes in MyXaml, and it seems a lot more intuitive, but ultimately, it's just a syntactical difference.
devvvy wrote:
The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
I do hear that. A new framework / API / OS / UI presentation definitely can get in the way of "the issue at hand". I got pretty screwed many years ago when Borland made a huge change to their OWL framework, then again when I moved to MFC, waking up to the realization that my code was entangled with framework dependencies. Personally, nowadays I tend to wrap frameworks in my own API calls to get some measure of independence (and it also allows some flexibility in, for example, working with Oracle vs. SQL Server), and I definitely try to ensure a clean separation between the UI and everything else, because as you point out, the UI keeps changing! Anyways, I ramble... Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
devvvy wrote:
you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one!
Well, that's a good point - one of the reasons I haven't dived into WPF is because of the learning curve and the lack of needing to learn WPF. I would have to say though, that to do anything useful in WinForms, one has to learn about data triggers, binding, properties, etc., and so ultimately has a learning curve associated with it. Personally, some of the syntax in WPF is just bizarre, which has been an obstacle to my learning it. I've done similar things with backing classes in MyXaml, and it seems a lot more intuitive, but ultimately, it's just a syntactical difference.
devvvy wrote:
The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
I do hear that. A new framework / API / OS / UI presentation definitely can get in the way of "the issue at hand". I got pretty screwed many years ago when Borland made a huge change to their OWL framework, then again when I moved to MFC, waking up to the realization that my code was entangled with framework dependencies. Personally, nowadays I tend to wrap frameworks in my own API calls to get some measure of independence (and it also allows some flexibility in, for example, working with Oracle vs. SQL Server), and I definitely try to ensure a clean separation between the UI and everything else, because as you point out, the UI keeps changing! Anyways, I ramble... Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F# -
So you're not saying that the shift to WPF wasn't major, just that the shift wasn't worth the higher learning curve? I imagine that depends on the developer. WPF is insanely powerful, and I wouldn't even imagine doing in Windows Forms the things you can do in WPF (such as this, which includes a tab control with some of the tabs containing expanders that have other controls).
sorry, but your link really scared me :~ but you are right saying that WPF enables things that were impossibly before, and I even learned it quickly than i learned Windows Forms... :-O
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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sorry, but your link really scared me :~ but you are right saying that WPF enables things that were impossibly before, and I even learned it quickly than i learned Windows Forms... :-O
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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I at a Microsoft Visual Studio event yesterday and asked about the relationship between the WinRT and .NET Framework. The answer I got was that a lot of the .NET Framework was pushed down into the RT OS, and that, depending on what you were doing, you might not notice much of a difference. Really!?! That sounds musical. But remmeber Silverlight not support System.Collections (it requires that all collections be generic) - would there be similar deal breaker?! Clearly, though, UI will need to be rewritten. From here, WPF/Winform and other "Desktop Apps" should still run on Windows 8[^] - UI will not be rewritten unless you want to put it in Windows App Store. Am I mistaken?!
dev
True, if you're writing on top of the full Windows 8, you get .NET and everything else that has always been available in windows. But if you're writing against the WinRT API (which qualifies you for the windows store), you'll need a whole new UI. I didn't mean to suggest that existing applications won't run on Windows 8, just that if you're writing what used to be called a 'metro' app, you'll have to redo any UI you did.
Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^]
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sorry, but your link really scared me :~ but you are right saying that WPF enables things that were impossibly before, and I even learned it quickly than i learned Windows Forms... :-O
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
Sentenryu wrote:
your link really scared me
Was it because you thought you had somehow been downgraded back to IE7 on Windows XP? :laugh:
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no, i really got scared, controls inside the tabs header :~ never thought someone would want it... conversely, one time a client asked for a combobox inside a button inside a slider :~ he even draw it to us! don't know how my boss convinced him it was a bad idea :doh:
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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Sentenryu wrote:
your link really scared me
Was it because you thought you had somehow been downgraded back to IE7 on Windows XP? :laugh:
AspDotNetDev wrote:
downgraded back to IE7 on Windows XP?
in fact, i installed win XP SP3 in a VM another day due to a school homework i needed to do... i found it comes with IE6, I'm still having nightmares...
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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no, i really got scared, controls inside the tabs header :~ never thought someone would want it... conversely, one time a client asked for a combobox inside a button inside a slider :~ he even draw it to us! don't know how my boss convinced him it was a bad idea :doh:
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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sorry Marc, I do appreciate ability to code up UI declaratively, I do think it's cool. This said, you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one! The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
dev
devvvy wrote:
you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve.
You can what now? A long time ago we had MS DOS, and trust me on this, going from DOS to Windows had a pretty big learning curve. Or try jumping from [Win32|MFC|WinForm|WPF|Metro] to Objective-C...
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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devvvy wrote:
you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve.
You can what now? A long time ago we had MS DOS, and trust me on this, going from DOS to Windows had a pretty big learning curve. Or try jumping from [Win32|MFC|WinForm|WPF|Metro] to Objective-C...
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
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How much time you wasted moving from Win32>MFC>WinForm>WPF and now Metro?!? How much time you wasted moving from raw socket>asmx>WCF? And now[^], because our apps needs to look like it runs on a tablet we need to abandon .NET and rewrite on top of WinRT? Way I see it, vendors like Infragistics/DevExpress produces values - we pay for it. M$ has fallen in love with year-on-year API overhaul which leads to nothing. They keep doing this long enuf even loyal M$ developer will jump boat. Who the hell is actually steering M$ development effort and product offering these days?!
dev
After reading this month's special MSDN magazine on WinRT, I was really just shocked at the amount of hoops[^] .NET has to goto to get into WinRT code. Granted, this may be nothing for what already happens to .NET to Win32, but still...it sounded like more room for bugs to creep in than anything else.
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After reading this month's special MSDN magazine on WinRT, I was really just shocked at the amount of hoops[^] .NET has to goto to get into WinRT code. Granted, this may be nothing for what already happens to .NET to Win32, but still...it sounded like more room for bugs to creep in than anything else.
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And this is why our next generation server is running on Linux.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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forget ridiculous demands focus on things which actually matters - brush it off can you? sometimes you can't just do everything your client request economically.
dev
Agreed. actually i think my boss used the product price to make the client forget his request :laugh:
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
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How much time you wasted moving from Win32>MFC>WinForm>WPF and now Metro?!? How much time you wasted moving from raw socket>asmx>WCF? And now[^], because our apps needs to look like it runs on a tablet we need to abandon .NET and rewrite on top of WinRT? Way I see it, vendors like Infragistics/DevExpress produces values - we pay for it. M$ has fallen in love with year-on-year API overhaul which leads to nothing. They keep doing this long enuf even loyal M$ developer will jump boat. Who the hell is actually steering M$ development effort and product offering these days?!
dev
It a matter of choices - I avoid being locked into a single vendors "paradigm" By way of example (i.e., web based apps), I use javaScript and .php . Didn't (wouldn't) even install Silverlight. When feasible, I will recreate features from scratch so as to make them transportable, over time, to a useful new platform should I need to adopt one (done more w/C++). Avoid implementation specific functionality. Beyond coding, I expanded this to real-life situations, where possible. ALL of my email is via forwards so that I don't have a dependency upon any internet provider. If I don't like my domain service I can transfer them to a new one. There's a price that those who wish all the shiny pretty new stuff may not wish to pay. It's a wide spread mental deficiency - much like that which causes people to line up for days to overpay for the latest iCowpie. Just make a firm decision: try to be modern and on top of the latest and be an early adopter or stick with robust systems with broad bases and adopt the things that stand the test of time (such as it is within the IT world). Then just stick with your choice and enjoy the ride.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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devvvy wrote:
you can start coding Winform with almost zero learning curve. No data triggers, no data binding expressions, no dependency properties ... etc. With Winform, you just start coding on day-one!
Well, that's a good point - one of the reasons I haven't dived into WPF is because of the learning curve and the lack of needing to learn WPF. I would have to say though, that to do anything useful in WinForms, one has to learn about data triggers, binding, properties, etc., and so ultimately has a learning curve associated with it. Personally, some of the syntax in WPF is just bizarre, which has been an obstacle to my learning it. I've done similar things with backing classes in MyXaml, and it seems a lot more intuitive, but ultimately, it's just a syntactical difference.
devvvy wrote:
The ability for developers to focus on the issue at hand (for me, derivative risk/trading apps) carries a much higher level of precedence than yet another "Paradigm Shift".
I do hear that. A new framework / API / OS / UI presentation definitely can get in the way of "the issue at hand". I got pretty screwed many years ago when Borland made a huge change to their OWL framework, then again when I moved to MFC, waking up to the realization that my code was entangled with framework dependencies. Personally, nowadays I tend to wrap frameworks in my own API calls to get some measure of independence (and it also allows some flexibility in, for example, working with Oracle vs. SQL Server), and I definitely try to ensure a clean separation between the UI and everything else, because as you point out, the UI keeps changing! Anyways, I ramble... Marc
Reverse Engineering Legacy Applications
How To Think Like a Functional Programmer
My Blog
Computational Types in C# and F#With this discussion Marc I personally have found it a level headed view on the matter keep rambling about it! :thumbsup:
Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provençale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam - Monty Python Spam Sketch