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  3. How Long Will Programmers Be So Well-Paid?

How Long Will Programmers Be So Well-Paid?

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  • L Lost User

    I tried google once, didn't get a reply, as usual. Might as well try the rest I suppose, no harm in trying :)

    N Offline
    N Offline
    Nish Nishant
    wrote on last edited by
    #8

    Well, with Microsoft, they always have so many different positions open, and these keep changign too, so you should check every few months or so to see if there's something that fits your profile.

    Regards, Nish


    My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • N Nish Nishant

      http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.

      Regards, Nish


      My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

      RaviBeeR Offline
      RaviBeeR Offline
      RaviBee
      wrote on last edited by
      #9

      "But why has the supply of good engineers remained so strained?  We're talking about work that can, in principle, be performed by anyone anywhere with a half-decent computer and a decent Internet connection." R-i-i-i-ght. :) /ravi

      My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

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      • N Nish Nishant

        http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.

        Regards, Nish


        My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

        E Offline
        E Offline
        Espen Harlinn
        wrote on last edited by
        #10

        Nish Sivakumar wrote:

        hard to hire a good developer

        What makes a developer a good developer?

        Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

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        • L Lost User

          Nish Sivakumar wrote:

          Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer

          "Can you program in HTML?" -"F*ck no." :thumbsup:

          Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: if you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]

          E Offline
          E Offline
          Espen Harlinn
          wrote on last edited by
          #11

          Eddy Vluggen wrote:

          F*ck no

          :thumbsup: Well said :-D

          Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

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          • N Nish Nishant

            harold aptroot wrote:

            Well then why is it impossible to even get an interview for one of the better jobs?
             
            Or am I just that bad at writing my CV?

            I would say it's because most candidates rate themselves higher than what a 3rd person would. Including myself.

            Regards, Nish


            My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #12

            So, you're screwed if you tend to underrate yourself.

            Hassan

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • L Lost User

              I suppose so. But IMO that doesn't really explain why I can only get jobs that offer minimum-"unfortunately we're not allowed to employ you with ball and chain"-wage. Someone who does assembly optimizations for VLC in their free time should rate above that, even if just a little.

              E Offline
              E Offline
              Espen Harlinn
              wrote on last edited by
              #13

              How about writing a couple of articles here on CP? It certainly wouldn't hurt, and it might help you to get noticed.

              Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

              L 1 Reply Last reply
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              • N Nish Nishant

                http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.

                Regards, Nish


                My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

                F Offline
                F Offline
                Frank R Haugen
                wrote on last edited by
                #14

                I can't speak for other places but where I come from, programming isn't a popular profession and engineering degrees aren't easy to come by, (I'm from Norway). There are some universities which offer application development oriented degrees, but mostly its the title of engineer that get you the good salaries. But getting a Bachelors degree in computer engineering isn't just hard, it's only cream of the crop that get admitted in the first place. So though you have kids in their late teens dreaming of making their own software or games, they can't get in to the university programs due to grade requirements or not at a sufficient subject tier in math and physics. The result is that you have people with the drive and talent, but without any way to get into the job they want, they settle for something else. So if you ever come across someone with an IT Civil Engineering degree, (master's degree in engineering), from Norway, he or she will be the best of the best; but it leaves little opertunety for someone who'll settle for being a pure programmer. So I think that having programming as a vocation/profession track in high school, might be the solution, (this might not translate the way I mean it but it'll have to do), so that it's a professional skill easier to acquire. (engineering degrees need not be easier to get). that's my two cents worth! -frank

                J 1 Reply Last reply
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                • N Nish Nishant

                  http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.

                  Regards, Nish


                  My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

                  R Offline
                  R Offline
                  Roger Wright
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #15

                  Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.

                  Will Rogers never met me.

                  E J 2 Replies Last reply
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                  • L Lost User

                    Well then why is it impossible to even get an interview for one of the better jobs? Or am I just that bad at writing my CV?

                    B Offline
                    B Offline
                    BillWoodruff
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #16

                    Hi Harold, It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: "how do those that do get an interview for one of the better jobs" at specific companies achieve that ? I'd try to learn everything I could about each specific company I was planning to apply to: about who they hire; what the steps in the hiring process are (or, if they out-source pre-hire screening: who does that); what is the form of initial contact from a job applicant they expect: cover letter including a link to resume; resume + cv ... etc. In most cases I would write a very brief, specific, cover letter based on everything I had learned about the company, and "tailored to" the position I was applying for. Unless, of course, I knew that "cover letters" were not wanted by the specific company. Such a cover letter would express, in two, or, three, short paragraphs: 1. Why my experience qualifies me to be a good potential employee, for this particular project or task. 2. Why I wanted to work for this company, on this particular project or task. 3. That I am available, and ready/eager, to go to work for this company, on this particular project or task. If you have doubts about the style, and/or relevance, of your CV, or Resume, have you considered getting professional editorial assistance ? best, Bill

                    ~ Confused by Windows 8 ? This may help: [^] !

                    L R P 3 Replies Last reply
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                    • N Nish Nishant

                      http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/27/write-code-get-paid/[^] Interesting read! Specially the point about how it's so damn hard to hire a good developer.

                      Regards, Nish


                      My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

                      B Offline
                      B Offline
                      BillWoodruff
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #17

                      Hi Nish, I have lived in Chiang Mai over eleven years (in two installments, separated by five years back in the U.S.). The merit of that TechCrunch article is really "undermined" for me by the author's ridiculous statements about Chiang Mai, based on a visit of a few days: "... I’ve spend the last couple of days chilling out in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, a city where you could live like royalty and save money while making merely half of Google’s average developer salary." The author is correct about the possible cost-of-living you can have here, depending on your relative frugality of life-style, being a fraction of what the cost of living (in a "non-poverty" lifestyle) in any great American, or European, city, or Singapore, or Hong Kong, or Taipei, etc., would be. Where the author is absolutely wrong is in his later assumption that cost-of-living is the primary driving factor in expat migration to Chiang Mai(there are many other factors, and the author shows no evidence he has any statistical basis for his statements about expat demography): "... has tempted thousands of expats who now live here" The author then goes on to form a hypothesis from his short stay in Chiang Mai: "... And their presence [he's speaking of expats in Chiang Mai] has sparked a possible explanation for this apparent paradox." The "paradox" which the author claims is a causal factor of what he perceives as a "skewed" distribution of skilled programmers, not just in Thailand, but in other countries: is absurd; a violation of at least two of the logical principles of inference. Another absurdity in the article is where the author mentions "Chiang Mai" along with "Bangalore," as if there were a "parallel:" "Instead you’ll advance to the point at which you’re reasonably happy with your paycheck, which studies indicate is about $70,000/year in America. (But much less in Chiang Mai or Bangalore.)" Chiang Mai, and Thailand, is an "absolute zero" in software development compared to India: to Bangalore; or Hyderabad; or Mumbai. There are very few expat programmers here. Only two companies of small size that I know of in Chiang Mai, where the owners are expats, and employees, in general, Thai. There may be out-sourcing "sweatshops" here in Thailand I don't know of, where crap-work is being performed: but, since average Thai mastery of English is so poor, compared to India, you can be sure there is no out-sourcing on-line voice-chat support industry here that can be compared to India, or other

                      E N 2 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • B BillWoodruff

                        Hi Harold, It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: "how do those that do get an interview for one of the better jobs" at specific companies achieve that ? I'd try to learn everything I could about each specific company I was planning to apply to: about who they hire; what the steps in the hiring process are (or, if they out-source pre-hire screening: who does that); what is the form of initial contact from a job applicant they expect: cover letter including a link to resume; resume + cv ... etc. In most cases I would write a very brief, specific, cover letter based on everything I had learned about the company, and "tailored to" the position I was applying for. Unless, of course, I knew that "cover letters" were not wanted by the specific company. Such a cover letter would express, in two, or, three, short paragraphs: 1. Why my experience qualifies me to be a good potential employee, for this particular project or task. 2. Why I wanted to work for this company, on this particular project or task. 3. That I am available, and ready/eager, to go to work for this company, on this particular project or task. If you have doubts about the style, and/or relevance, of your CV, or Resume, have you considered getting professional editorial assistance ? best, Bill

                        ~ Confused by Windows 8 ? This may help: [^] !

                        L Offline
                        L Offline
                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #18

                        What's this, useful advice in the Lounge? I'm shocked, shocked I say! But thanks :)

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • E Espen Harlinn

                          How about writing a couple of articles here on CP? It certainly wouldn't hurt, and it might help you to get noticed.

                          Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                          L Offline
                          L Offline
                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #19

                          I'm bad at writing non-code. See that article I have now? (it actually has bad code, too) But maybe I'll try again anyway.

                          E 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • L Lost User

                            I'm bad at writing non-code. See that article I have now? (it actually has bad code, too) But maybe I'll try again anyway.

                            E Offline
                            E Offline
                            Espen Harlinn
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #20

                            harold aptroot wrote:

                            maybe I'll try again anyway

                            I hope so :-D Those who are able to get well paid often do so because they have honed their communication skills - and having said that, I hope you realize that getting 3,137 for your first article is pretty good.

                            Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                            L 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • R Roger Wright

                              Code monkeys will continue to get cheaper, as languages and libraries improve and even grade school kids are learning to make a computer jump through hoops. People who can take a problem, analyze it and develop a solution, then create a set of instructions (requirements) clear enough for code monkeys to program against will only become more rare and valuable. There will be bonuses for those few who are equally proficient in both the hardware and software realms, and special perks for that tiny minority who still understand math.

                              Will Rogers never met me.

                              E Offline
                              E Offline
                              Espen Harlinn
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #21

                              Good points - but it's often hard to initially figure out which one you've got on your hands during an interview - that may take several months.

                              Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                              L 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • B BillWoodruff

                                Hi Nish, I have lived in Chiang Mai over eleven years (in two installments, separated by five years back in the U.S.). The merit of that TechCrunch article is really "undermined" for me by the author's ridiculous statements about Chiang Mai, based on a visit of a few days: "... I’ve spend the last couple of days chilling out in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, a city where you could live like royalty and save money while making merely half of Google’s average developer salary." The author is correct about the possible cost-of-living you can have here, depending on your relative frugality of life-style, being a fraction of what the cost of living (in a "non-poverty" lifestyle) in any great American, or European, city, or Singapore, or Hong Kong, or Taipei, etc., would be. Where the author is absolutely wrong is in his later assumption that cost-of-living is the primary driving factor in expat migration to Chiang Mai(there are many other factors, and the author shows no evidence he has any statistical basis for his statements about expat demography): "... has tempted thousands of expats who now live here" The author then goes on to form a hypothesis from his short stay in Chiang Mai: "... And their presence [he's speaking of expats in Chiang Mai] has sparked a possible explanation for this apparent paradox." The "paradox" which the author claims is a causal factor of what he perceives as a "skewed" distribution of skilled programmers, not just in Thailand, but in other countries: is absurd; a violation of at least two of the logical principles of inference. Another absurdity in the article is where the author mentions "Chiang Mai" along with "Bangalore," as if there were a "parallel:" "Instead you’ll advance to the point at which you’re reasonably happy with your paycheck, which studies indicate is about $70,000/year in America. (But much less in Chiang Mai or Bangalore.)" Chiang Mai, and Thailand, is an "absolute zero" in software development compared to India: to Bangalore; or Hyderabad; or Mumbai. There are very few expat programmers here. Only two companies of small size that I know of in Chiang Mai, where the owners are expats, and employees, in general, Thai. There may be out-sourcing "sweatshops" here in Thailand I don't know of, where crap-work is being performed: but, since average Thai mastery of English is so poor, compared to India, you can be sure there is no out-sourcing on-line voice-chat support industry here that can be compared to India, or other

                                E Offline
                                E Offline
                                Espen Harlinn
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #22

                                :thumbsup: Oh, Bill - you're ruining a good story... ;)

                                Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • E Espen Harlinn

                                  harold aptroot wrote:

                                  maybe I'll try again anyway

                                  I hope so :-D Those who are able to get well paid often do so because they have honed their communication skills - and having said that, I hope you realize that getting 3,137 for your first article is pretty good.

                                  Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                  L Offline
                                  L Offline
                                  Lost User
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #23

                                  That's mostly because people keep downloading the code. Unfortunately for them the code works with approximately 1 router ever - the one I had at the time I wrote the article.

                                  E 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • L Lost User

                                    That's mostly because people keep downloading the code. Unfortunately for them the code works with approximately 1 router ever - the one I had at the time I wrote the article.

                                    E Offline
                                    E Offline
                                    Espen Harlinn
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #24

                                    Don't let that worry you, the code for Security: It’s Getting Worse[^] gets downloaded on a regular basis - even though the article states that it's an example on how you're not supposed to do it :) 2,845 downloads indicate that something more on this would be appreciated.

                                    Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • E Espen Harlinn

                                      Good points - but it's often hard to initially figure out which one you've got on your hands during an interview - that may take several months.

                                      Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                      L Offline
                                      L Offline
                                      Lost User
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #25

                                      I just recently had my share of interviews. Let's look at it from the other perspective. Becoming a code monkey is the last thing I would want and during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for. When they just keep asking questions about rules, best practices or standards, then they probably want a code monkey. Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told. Things usually get interesting for me when they start to ask questions which require understanding, not mindless devotion to rules and standards.

                                      E 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • L Lost User

                                        I just recently had my share of interviews. Let's look at it from the other perspective. Becoming a code monkey is the last thing I would want and during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for. When they just keep asking questions about rules, best practices or standards, then they probably want a code monkey. Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told. Things usually get interesting for me when they start to ask questions which require understanding, not mindless devotion to rules and standards.

                                        E Offline
                                        E Offline
                                        Espen Harlinn
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #26

                                        CDP1802 wrote:

                                        during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for

                                        Sometimes they only have a vague idea about what that really is.

                                        CDP1802 wrote:

                                        Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told.

                                        Now, that is a recipe for disaster - and far too common. When you're about to instruct the worlds most efficient idiot - which I think aptly describes a computer - it certainly helps that you know the why of things. If you don't understand it, how can you model and implement it?

                                        Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                        L 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • E Espen Harlinn

                                          CDP1802 wrote:

                                          during the interview I try to find out what they are looking for

                                          Sometimes they only have a vague idea about what that really is.

                                          CDP1802 wrote:

                                          Code monkeys do not need to know why they are doing something. They just have to know the rules and use them to do what they are told.

                                          Now, that is a recipe for disaster - and far too common. When you're about to instruct the worlds most efficient idiot - which I think aptly describes a computer - it certainly helps that you know the why of things. If you don't understand it, how can you model and implement it?

                                          Espen Harlinn Principal Architect, Software - Goodtech Projects & Services AS Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail. Edsger W.Dijkstra

                                          L Offline
                                          L Offline
                                          Lost User
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #27

                                          I already had that dubious pleasure and do not wish to repeat it. But that's what all that talk about 'standards' is all about. The developers are just better secretaries to do the typing. What they are supposed to type is dictated by the 'standards' and enforced by style checking tools. Understanding is not required. It's even unwanted, since it makes the people ask awkward questions instead of being 'productive'. And you can probably guess what happens when such a team runs into problems. They can't even start to deal with them, because they went through all the motions and rituals in the 'standardized' way which magically should eliminate any problems beforehand.

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