The VB Stigma
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One of the biggest problems with VB.net is that it attracts all the VB6 idiots, so a large amount of the VB code out there is written by idiots. After all, if you're not trying to pick a language that your monkeys could do, you'll pick C# over VB.net because the language is more concise and more full featured (e.g. writing lambdas or delegates in VB is painful).
The biggest problem with VB is that it has too many design flaws. I noticed that people who started programming with VB have difficulties to understand why others discredit VB. C# has some design flaws too (says Anders Hejlsberg), but it is probably one of the nicest programing language ever designed.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
VB.Net is a .Net language. That means it's just as good as any other .Net language in terms of capabilities. That being said, there's something about the VB.Net programmer that sets them a class apart from someone who would pick C#. I find that VB programmers are the worst. They routinely don't understand the details of computer programming. When I hear of understandings like "Linq should be faster because it's fewer lines of code" I cringe. I know the correct response is to analyze the machine instructions produced from such statements, and to unroll all of the code and really look at the actual instructions sent to the processor. But years of having these discussions has taught me to just politely smile and reply "well, let me see if I can do better by writing all the code in C#". The response is always the same: skepticism at first, and then utter shock. They are always amazed that hundreds of lines of code in C# will plow through a complicated Linq query much faster. They don't understand things outside of their simplified VB.Net world. Sure, you can make the same mistake in C#, but the kicker is programmers who choose C# tend to know better. If your apps are simple and don't deal with large amounts of data, this is not a problem. But to turn a VB.Net programmer on a complicated task that is going to require some thinking about how to optimize it.... just say no. Find a real programmer who would say "I can do that in C#". That response alone is usually proof positive that the person knows how to do it.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
VB.net is my primary language. I use it in an OO manner just as I would with C# but the stigma and lack of tooling (re: Mono) is getting to be a big problem. I'm looking around for a different job and I'm being careful to only talk about my experience on the .net framework rather than VB as a particular syntax because I've heard and seen people automatically dismiss VB without further thought. I'm productive in VB because I know and understand the syntax. While I can work in C#, I know that I'm going to have to climb the learning curve to get as efficient with the syntax as I am with VB. On the other hand, I need to do some things with my primary application in order to satisfy my customers and the tooling that I need to accomplish that and maintain compatibility is only available in the C# world. It's a shame that I have to change syntax as much because of reputation as tooling, but at least I'm still able to work in the framework so I can maintain that part of my knowledge and experience. I will say though that in my opinion... VB is no more verbose than C# in daily use and the 'shape' of functions is much clearer to my practiced eye than C# functions. I find that the commonly used style for C# eats up much more vertical space than a similar VB function and that horizontal space is very similar between the two.
SixOfTheClock wrote:
3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue.
This point gripes me to no end. I can't understand it from a logical perspective EXCEPT... that I've been in local college courses for both syntax's and found that the instructors treat the two languages in orthogonal manners. C# instructors teach OOP, while VB instructors teach quick and dirty almost linear techniques targeted more at Win-forms than at real-world apps. I have to wonder if this is systemic across the industry and helps to propogate the stigma against VB in the real world. This isn't to say that the local C# courses are very good mind you... when the advanced C# instructor taught ASP.net data access (one year ago) using techniques that were the definition of a SQL injection vulnerability and then didn't back down when
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VB.Net is a .Net language. That means it's just as good as any other .Net language in terms of capabilities. That being said, there's something about the VB.Net programmer that sets them a class apart from someone who would pick C#. I find that VB programmers are the worst. They routinely don't understand the details of computer programming. When I hear of understandings like "Linq should be faster because it's fewer lines of code" I cringe. I know the correct response is to analyze the machine instructions produced from such statements, and to unroll all of the code and really look at the actual instructions sent to the processor. But years of having these discussions has taught me to just politely smile and reply "well, let me see if I can do better by writing all the code in C#". The response is always the same: skepticism at first, and then utter shock. They are always amazed that hundreds of lines of code in C# will plow through a complicated Linq query much faster. They don't understand things outside of their simplified VB.Net world. Sure, you can make the same mistake in C#, but the kicker is programmers who choose C# tend to know better. If your apps are simple and don't deal with large amounts of data, this is not a problem. But to turn a VB.Net programmer on a complicated task that is going to require some thinking about how to optimize it.... just say no. Find a real programmer who would say "I can do that in C#". That response alone is usually proof positive that the person knows how to do it.
Patrick Fox wrote:
But to turn a VB.Net programmer on a complicated task that is going to require some thinking about how to optimize it.... just say no. Find a real programmer who would say "I can do that in C#". That response alone is usually proof positive that the person knows how to do it.
Blame the programmer, not the language. The perception of VB as an easy language for people who aren't "real" programmers is exactly why there are so many bad VB programmers out there. It's a problem of perception rather than the language itself, and this dismissive attitude towards VB programmers is exactly why so many inexperienced and unsophisticated programmers gravitate towards VB. They think that it's easy, they use it like it's easy, they think it requires no real in-depth thought or knowledge, and the results are predictably bad. It's not the language that's the problem. There are good VB programmers out there, and there are certainly bad C# programmers out there. Code is easy to write but hard to write well, and that's true in any language.
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mark merrens wrote:
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Funny ... that's my signature on most of my forum accounts too. Small world. -CB ;)
:thumbsup:
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Patrick Fox wrote:
But to turn a VB.Net programmer on a complicated task that is going to require some thinking about how to optimize it.... just say no. Find a real programmer who would say "I can do that in C#". That response alone is usually proof positive that the person knows how to do it.
Blame the programmer, not the language. The perception of VB as an easy language for people who aren't "real" programmers is exactly why there are so many bad VB programmers out there. It's a problem of perception rather than the language itself, and this dismissive attitude towards VB programmers is exactly why so many inexperienced and unsophisticated programmers gravitate towards VB. They think that it's easy, they use it like it's easy, they think it requires no real in-depth thought or knowledge, and the results are predictably bad. It's not the language that's the problem. There are good VB programmers out there, and there are certainly bad C# programmers out there. Code is easy to write but hard to write well, and that's true in any language.
I know, I don't disagree, but WHY is it so prevalent in this language that you find the most ignorant people? I know there are good VB.Net programmers, but I have never met one that wasn't proficient in at least one other language, either a close cousin like C# or something farther removed like C/C++ or Java. Real programmers know how to write code, not just how to use one language. I use VB all the time and there's a teeny tiny number of things it can't do compared to C#, none of them insurmountable. Most of them are just syntax related anyway. The ONLY reason I choose to use VB over C# is so that my coworkers can read and understand my code, or maintain it if I am out sick. The same VB code in C# might as well be a foreign language they can't speak. That's not true of all of them, but enough of them to mandate VB use. It's the lowest common denominator.
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Oh, I thought he was talking about Java's hacked-on and very type-unsafe generics mechanism. For example, try this:
private void test() {
List list = new ArrayList();
addStuff(list);
for(String item : list)
logger.info(item);
}private void addStuff(List list){
list.add(new Object());
}This will give you a compiler warning in addStuff, but that doesn't help you if the non-typed collection method is in another library. The code won't fail in addStuff, though; it will result in a List<String> that contains non-strings!
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
You aren't missing anything. I've never understood geeky "strong" opinions about languages. I've had a 40 year programming career that has included several languages; Fortran, Assembler, C, C++, Visual Basic, JavaScript, Cold Fusion, and now VB.Net (for the past 6 years). Each language has to be accepted on its own merits. Features available in one may not be found in another. Syntaxes vary. Get over it. It is what it is. Visual Basic is thought of as a simple language designed to make the development of desktop applications easy. VB.NET however sits atop the .NET runtime and can be used to develop powerful server-side applications. C# sits atop the exact same runtime. Unfortunately VB.NET makes some think of Visual Basic. Okay, VB.NET is an enhanced Visual Basic. So what? The syntax used by VB.NET is totally different from that used by C#; C# is terse, VB is verbose. Again, so what? Personally I like the "wordiness" of VB.NET, though I have no problem reading well-written C#. In fact, learning C# is on my to-do list. I also don't understand the view that VB.NET programmers aren't "real" programmers. I certainly am and know there are many others. Many of those casting stones have never had to worry about freeing malloc'd memory, uninitialized pointers, or buffer overruns. So don't judge a programmer by the language they currently work in. Whenever I encounter someone who has intense distain for a language, hardware, or vendor, I just cut them off saying I'm not interested in the discussion, as I've seen some individuals virtually decompensate defending their views. As for your colleague who said: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." Just be sure their code is reviewed early and often.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I enjoy coding in VB because I can speed-read the language. James Plotts
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Hi. The stigma on Visual Basic comes from its beginning, being an introductory level language, usually is the first taught to people that want to learn programming, either in courses or self taught, this lead to a bunch of people that can program but don't know or fully understand what they're doing, hopefully some of them go beyond and learn more advanced stuff, but many just stay with the basics and make terrible programs that need to be maintained later, by a more skilled programmer that (rightfully) will think that anything written on Visual Basic is shit. In summary, is not the language, is the majority of the people that use it what gives it a bad reputation, personally i don't like VB, i find the syntax too verbose, but i had to use it in a former job (in the .NET variant) and i learned to respect it as a serious language.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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:thumbsup:
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
If you like Red Adair, there's an old John Wayne movie called "Hellfighters" that tells the basic story of oil fire fighting. Good old flick. -CB
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If you like Red Adair, there's an old John Wayne movie called "Hellfighters" that tells the basic story of oil fire fighting. Good old flick. -CB
Seen that a few times: great movie.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
VB’s stigma drives me insane. I prefer the BASIC syntax. That said the most fun I’ve had was writing an ASCII C, HTTP protocol Poster/Receiver on an AS/400. The arrogance I see around C# just kills the entire language for me. I’ve toyed with creating my own language for a few years now. Without a doubt it’ll be the BASIC syntax. I can see the tag line now: “Where C# developers go to have fun!” Maybe one decade I’ll actually commit enough time to write it.
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VB’s stigma drives me insane. I prefer the BASIC syntax. That said the most fun I’ve had was writing an ASCII C, HTTP protocol Poster/Receiver on an AS/400. The arrogance I see around C# just kills the entire language for me. I’ve toyed with creating my own language for a few years now. Without a doubt it’ll be the BASIC syntax. I can see the tag line now: “Where C# developers go to have fun!” Maybe one decade I’ll actually commit enough time to write it.
Better yet, why not make a new language for wanna-be coders so they can migrate over to that and leave VB.NET to the pros? It's a win for everyone. You can call it something like Miserable Object-disoriented Really Obnoxious Non-language(MORON). Just claim backwards-compatibility with VB6 and it will take off like a rocket.
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Better yet, why not make a new language for wanna-be coders so they can migrate over to that and leave VB.NET to the pros? It's a win for everyone. You can call it something like Miserable Object-disoriented Really Obnoxious Non-language(MORON). Just claim backwards-compatibility with VB6 and it will take off like a rocket.
lol, I love the name. Actually one of my goals would be the help find and educate kinds of kids like I was… bored taking apart clocks and toasters & wanting to “take apart” software. (So “wanna-be coders” is an accurate term.) If I can’t make it “self-discoverable” I would not consider it a success. Yet having an academic only language is a waste of time… I must have a real-life use.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I'm a software engineer with over 35 years and I'm with you 100%. I've programmed as a contractor in pretty much every language on every platform and in every environment. What I found is that many Software Engineers or IT professional in general are like religious fanatics. I have my favorites just as everybody else, but atthe end of the day I believe a true professional works with what he/she has available and gets the best out of it. Just like with religion, faith is a basic pillar of those fanatical discussion. If you believe that Windows is worse than OSX, or that LINUX is the OS for professionals, or that VB is a baby language, please be my guest. I found just like you that often behind the facade of the self proclaimed professional is an individual with little knowledge an/or skills. Having said that as the manager of software engineers I have always tried to keep my staff "marketable" for their own sake. Unfortunately the job market is influenced by "technology apostels", so we moved our teams from VB.NET to C#, not because we didn't enjoy programming in it or were less successful doing so, but solely for the reason that the mainstream in the profession has chosen C# or C++ as their preferred language. As business software developer I have an obligation to my employer to do my job the most efficient way possible and that includes being able to share and absorb knowledge of the professional community via Google etc. We have watched the contributions from people providing samples and articles in VB.NET down close to nil during the last few years. At the same time hard and software providers that we utilize when we integrate with new technology, especially in the industrial production sector, have stopped providing any API descriptions and samples for anything but C#. On top of that fact, I want my staff to be able to find a job if out of whatever reason they have to leave our company in these uncertain economical times. So we made this decision based on facts and our circumstances. In our case it revitalized the development team quite a bit, because we were able to utilize the opportunity to get staff certified as a team effort. That was a lot of fun. So my statement would be: If you can only write code in one specific language and you religiously fight exposing yourself to other avenues, you are definitely not a IT professional, you are rather a one trick pony and quite ignorant on top of it.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Addressing one of your comments. "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." To which you replied the following. that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. I contend that it is you who does not know what they are talking about. While declaring variables locally within a function has it's uses, so does declaring the variables globally so that the whole program can see and use those variables. The way it works is that every time you enter a function, locally declared variables have memory allocated to them, and when you step out of that function, the memory is de-allocated. This takes time, ok sure it's only a few microseconds but consider this. If you write a program where timing is a critical factor and you are running through a particular function 6000 times or more, which would you choose? If you answered privately declared variables you would be wrong, the reason being is that those few microseconds add up, they are the difference between a program taking 1.5s to execute from beginning to end, and the same program taking 15 seconds to execute from beginning to end. Yes it is generally an unsafe practice I will agree, and should only be used when absolutely necessary, but when you have something that is time critical there really is no other viable option than declaring globally. it also has the added bonus of forcing a dev into being more diligent in their programming, because they are forced to check their program a whole lot more often than what you would otherwise, knowing which variable is used, when it is used, how it is used, and when it can be reused, if indeed it can be reused at all. So yes, programs written where everything is declared publically has their uses, but it is a very niche market, crytography is the prime example.
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Possibly the reason you hate VB.NET is that you, like most people who post here, are more consumed with how you solve the problem than solving the problem. One of the biggest issues with developers and projects is that we spend so damn much more time trying to decide what tools we should use than we do understanding the problem that we are (or should be) attempting to solve. I liken it to an old carpenter that I knew who always said that "Hell I can frame the wall with my hammer in the time it takes these kids to get their compressors setup, charged up, and the nail gun loaded". We, in my opinion, spend so much productive time attempting to come up with new, more elegant ways to do things. But as Dennis Miller used to say "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Possibly the reason you hate VB.NET is that you, like most people who post here, are more consumed with how you solve the problem than solving the problem. One of the biggest issues with developers and projects is that we spend so damn much more time trying to decide what tools we should use than we do understanding the problem that we are (or should be) attempting to solve. I liken it to an old carpenter that I knew who always said that "Hell I can frame the wall with my hammer in the time it takes these kids to get their compressors setup, charged up, and the nail gun loaded". We, in my opinion, spend so much productive time attempting to come up with new, more elegant ways to do things. But as Dennis Miller used to say "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"
The major bullet point in comparative languages is the ability to choose the correct language for the task at hand. Are you scripting on the web? Javascript. Are you writing image processing routines? C++ with some assembly. Writing Cross platform applications? Java (ok, up for debate) Writing data-driven business applications? C#. Natural Language processing? Lisp (funny, I know) The point is, that for all tasks there are languages that are appropriate to the task, some better than others. Yes, 99% of the functionality of C# exists in VB.NET but we also, have to consider, in the business application domain, maintenance. Of course, it is funny, that whenever I response to a debate about VB or syntax, or style or basically any holy war I usually get some sort of ad hominem reply. The reason I hate VB.NET, above all others, is that I have programmed in it and VB6, VB5 and VB4. I am by no means a master of all languages but very few VB.NET supporters program both (c# and VB.NET). [Hey, look, there I go with an ad hominem remark; I'm such a hypocrite]
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost