The VB Stigma
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Addressing one of your comments. "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." To which you replied the following. that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. I contend that it is you who does not know what they are talking about. While declaring variables locally within a function has it's uses, so does declaring the variables globally so that the whole program can see and use those variables. The way it works is that every time you enter a function, locally declared variables have memory allocated to them, and when you step out of that function, the memory is de-allocated. This takes time, ok sure it's only a few microseconds but consider this. If you write a program where timing is a critical factor and you are running through a particular function 6000 times or more, which would you choose? If you answered privately declared variables you would be wrong, the reason being is that those few microseconds add up, they are the difference between a program taking 1.5s to execute from beginning to end, and the same program taking 15 seconds to execute from beginning to end. Yes it is generally an unsafe practice I will agree, and should only be used when absolutely necessary, but when you have something that is time critical there really is no other viable option than declaring globally. it also has the added bonus of forcing a dev into being more diligent in their programming, because they are forced to check their program a whole lot more often than what you would otherwise, knowing which variable is used, when it is used, how it is used, and when it can be reused, if indeed it can be reused at all. So yes, programs written where everything is declared publically has their uses, but it is a very niche market, crytography is the prime example.
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Possibly the reason you hate VB.NET is that you, like most people who post here, are more consumed with how you solve the problem than solving the problem. One of the biggest issues with developers and projects is that we spend so damn much more time trying to decide what tools we should use than we do understanding the problem that we are (or should be) attempting to solve. I liken it to an old carpenter that I knew who always said that "Hell I can frame the wall with my hammer in the time it takes these kids to get their compressors setup, charged up, and the nail gun loaded". We, in my opinion, spend so much productive time attempting to come up with new, more elegant ways to do things. But as Dennis Miller used to say "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Possibly the reason you hate VB.NET is that you, like most people who post here, are more consumed with how you solve the problem than solving the problem. One of the biggest issues with developers and projects is that we spend so damn much more time trying to decide what tools we should use than we do understanding the problem that we are (or should be) attempting to solve. I liken it to an old carpenter that I knew who always said that "Hell I can frame the wall with my hammer in the time it takes these kids to get their compressors setup, charged up, and the nail gun loaded". We, in my opinion, spend so much productive time attempting to come up with new, more elegant ways to do things. But as Dennis Miller used to say "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"
The major bullet point in comparative languages is the ability to choose the correct language for the task at hand. Are you scripting on the web? Javascript. Are you writing image processing routines? C++ with some assembly. Writing Cross platform applications? Java (ok, up for debate) Writing data-driven business applications? C#. Natural Language processing? Lisp (funny, I know) The point is, that for all tasks there are languages that are appropriate to the task, some better than others. Yes, 99% of the functionality of C# exists in VB.NET but we also, have to consider, in the business application domain, maintenance. Of course, it is funny, that whenever I response to a debate about VB or syntax, or style or basically any holy war I usually get some sort of ad hominem reply. The reason I hate VB.NET, above all others, is that I have programmed in it and VB6, VB5 and VB4. I am by no means a master of all languages but very few VB.NET supporters program both (c# and VB.NET). [Hey, look, there I go with an ad hominem remark; I'm such a hypocrite]
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Your lack of reading earlier replies is directly responsible for you making this post. It has been a decade (more? less?) and I am still put off by the decision to use andalso instead of and as the short circuit operator.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Addressing one of your comments. "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." To which you replied the following. that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. I contend that it is you who does not know what they are talking about. While declaring variables locally within a function has it's uses, so does declaring the variables globally so that the whole program can see and use those variables. The way it works is that every time you enter a function, locally declared variables have memory allocated to them, and when you step out of that function, the memory is de-allocated. This takes time, ok sure it's only a few microseconds but consider this. If you write a program where timing is a critical factor and you are running through a particular function 6000 times or more, which would you choose? If you answered privately declared variables you would be wrong, the reason being is that those few microseconds add up, they are the difference between a program taking 1.5s to execute from beginning to end, and the same program taking 15 seconds to execute from beginning to end. Yes it is generally an unsafe practice I will agree, and should only be used when absolutely necessary, but when you have something that is time critical there really is no other viable option than declaring globally. it also has the added bonus of forcing a dev into being more diligent in their programming, because they are forced to check their program a whole lot more often than what you would otherwise, knowing which variable is used, when it is used, how it is used, and when it can be reused, if indeed it can be reused at all. So yes, programs written where everything is declared publically has their uses, but it is a very niche market, crytography is the prime example.
I think you missed the point. There may well be times when making all of the variables public is the right way to go, but based on what that guy said he wasn't in one of those situations, he was just clueless. If the argument is to make them all public so "nothing will break," then it's obvious that there's a serious underlying problem, and making everything public so "nothing will break" just hides the problem and makes it worse. No matter how many cases there may be for using global variables, the statement "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break" is a very dumb statement that reeks of programming ignorance. The guy who said that clearly doesn't get "the point" of making members private, so it's very clear that he has no idea what he's talking about and knows next to nothing about OO programming. If I heard another team member say that, I'd make a mental note that the guy is dangerously incompetent.
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I think you missed the point. There may well be times when making all of the variables public is the right way to go, but based on what that guy said he wasn't in one of those situations, he was just clueless. If the argument is to make them all public so "nothing will break," then it's obvious that there's a serious underlying problem, and making everything public so "nothing will break" just hides the problem and makes it worse. No matter how many cases there may be for using global variables, the statement "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break" is a very dumb statement that reeks of programming ignorance. The guy who said that clearly doesn't get "the point" of making members private, so it's very clear that he has no idea what he's talking about and knows next to nothing about OO programming. If I heard another team member say that, I'd make a mental note that the guy is dangerously incompetent.
Yes the statement "So nothing will break" is completely incompetant, the point I was making was that If you are going down the path of global variables, for whatever reason, you have to pay a whole lot more attention to what you're doing, to make sure nothing will break, ever, under any situation you can possibly ever concieve of no matter how unlikely it may be. It may increase dev time significantly to ensure that level of unbreakabbility, but in some situations it's worth it. I am not saying nothing will break ever, because it's impossible to develop any software that is entirely 100% bug free within the time constraints that dev's are given, but declaring globally helps put a dev into the mind set of extreme mitigation, the person who made the statement could have been good enough to declare globally and have the program unlikely to break, or he could have been utterly incompetant, the choice of words is unfotunate, assuming the former rather than the latter, a better choice of words would have been "so it's unlikely anything will break". I got the impression the OP was saying that declaring globally for any reason is bad, when it's not, sometimes it's the best thing you can do, so I made that point.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I find that anti VB.NET zealots are useful: 1) I know not employ them. 2) I can use VB to make and sell successful products without their "competition". 3) They give me great amusement in their twisty attempts to justify their biogtry!
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1st, let me just say, my first language was QBasic then VB4 ( I don't count my youthful meager C++ approaches). Professionally, I have done VB6 and VB.NET. Now for why I do not advocate VB: The majority of people drawn to VB are drawn to eat because they associate Basic with "easy" and no need to do it right. Quick and dirty is good enough, maintenance is unimportant. "Heck, I am a manager and I can program" is a scary phrase. I will never negatively criticize a well written VB application; however, they exist in some nether region that has escaped my vast experience. (My own work included, I have to use so many hacks in VB6 that it makes me cry). Second, VB.NET is a decision that is often made because the team is moving from or has experience with VB6 and not from a rational perspective. Or it is made because, "Talent is Cheaper" Third, C# is lucky, sharing a similar syntax with C, C++, and Java and having very similar APIS you can easily switch languages natural. Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifFifth, I could go on but, well, no matter how rational a point is a VB nut will downvote me.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Fourth, no one should have to wonder why this doesn't work:
if not foo is nothing and foo.Id < 10 then
end ifOf course it doesn't work, it doesn't do anything between "then" and "end if"! :laugh: I do remember swearing mightily at the language when I was learning it, it was blowing up because I was overindexing an array and had checked the index values before the "and field[id] >5". It's good to know the design considerations of earlier VB products went into such an idiodic practice. I really swore at it when I found out 8/3 was 3. What morons would design such dumb math? I felt a bit better when I found out 8\3 was 2 like it should be. Before that I was multiplying it by 3 and if the result was > 8 I'd subtract 1. All the while thinking this is such a stupid language.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
SixOfTheClock wrote:
"What's the point in declaring things as private?...
That's definitely the statement of someone without nearly enough training in coding. Hopefully it was meant as a sincere question from someone seeking knowledge, instead of a self-satisfied ignorant comment and you didn't hear the real question. It does read like an ignorant comment on the language. I don't mind asking ignorant questions when I already know I'm ignorant of the answer. You could have asked him "Do you really want an answer to that question? I'd be happy to spend a little time explaining it to you." That would cover your mishearing the real question AND telling him his statement was wrong if he really was giving an opinion. Gives him a chance to realize he still has things he needs to learn or to look for better ways of asking real questions. To me, anything that will alter the behavior of the machine was written by a "real" language. It just may not be one I'm familiar with. Therefore HTML is a "real" language. (I've heard opinions that it also isn't a real language.) Of course XML wasn't a real language until the DOM drivers became common-place.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Your three options seem a little narrow and biased, exactly what you are accusing those who do not like VB.Net of being. :) For me personally I do not like VB.Net as a language. It it far too verbose and has way too many keywords. For a number of years it lagged behind C# on supporting new features of .Net. And Microsoft should have never created the Visual Basic 6.0 Compatibility library. I prefer languages that have a statement terminator that is not a new line and just gravitated to C# because I come from a C-based background and enjoy its terseness. Warning, I am using a broad stroke to generalize below and know that there are good and crappy programmers regardless of the language. My biggest grip with VB.Net however is the type of developer that it tends to attract, that being people from pre-.Net VB. VB was never a very good language and didn't have good OO support. Putting a blob of procedural code in a Class file in VB6 seemed to be as object oriented as most pre.Net VB developers went. I have been developing professionally for 15 years now and while I have met very good developers that like and use VB.Net, most do not fall in to this category. Instead they are the type of developer that has an extremely limited knowledge base. Asking them to move outside of VB and SQL Server is as if you asked them to perform open heart surgery. Trying to get them to grok Oracle, MySQL, SQLite, Linux, Java, Python or non-MS-Only standards was always a hair-pulling exercise in frustration. Back in the days of old ASP these were the type of developers that I had to go and rip out their VBScript or IE6-only JavaScript and replace it with something cross browser. In meetings for new development where we could chose technology they were the type to push only for VB and SQL Server, not because they were the best solution but because that is all they knew. The majority (again, not all) of VB.Net developers I have seen over the last 3 years or so haven't even put in the effort to learn the greatness and fullness of the .Net library, instead opting to use the Visual Basic 6.0 Compatibility library to hold their hand. To me it seems languages such as VB and Cobol tend to attract someone who is more of a business person over a developer. The type of person who isn't as passionate about the technology and more about just getting a job done (there is nothing wrong with that). I am just the polar opposite; I am very passionate about the technology and always want to stay current (it provides for my fami
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
VB.NET is the language that really got me interested in programming in the first place. I took a Java class and by the end of it I didn't really enjoy it that much and started to think that programming was not for me. Then I took a VB.NET course and everything changed. Programming was fun. I built good stuff with VB and was able to pick it up quickly. By the end of that class, I was in love with programming. Now I program mostly in C# and I actually prefer it over VB after having used both for a while. Regardless, VB is a real language that you can do anything you want in. Anyone saying otherwise is either clueless or just a jerk. There has been great stuff built with VB, for example The Ocean Framework[^]. Don't feel ashamed to enjoy VB.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
Personally I am happy with visual basic and no longer care about other languages struggling to make their mark. If you have a good look at what is growing in momentum is SQL Server. It is now powered by visual studio the home of visual basic that houses the other languages through .net. I believe that we will have to learn how to become DBA and learn SQL. If the power is given back to the DBA the only options coders will have are to drag a Data Object to a html 5 form and any code will just take away from what is supplied. Microsoft SQL Server just another tool in VB Land. Redundancy is another word for coders Duplication Redundancy Coders creating a service, coders creating forms to recreate the same code, who create code full of vulnerabilities and holes. Why not make and set the rules on the server and drag and drop away?
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
VB6 ... was ... very easy to write horrible, eye-burning code with code with
Are you seriously saying that you have never seen 'horrible, eye-burning code' in C, C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, Python, PERL, F#, APL, Assembler(s), LotusScript, FORTRAN, LISP, Algol60, etc, etc? A good programmer can write good code in any language; a bad programmer can write bad code in any language. The language is only the way that you write a representation of the algorithm that you thought up in your head.
It's a very different flavour of horrible, eye-burning code. One can quite easily write terrible code that somehow manages to run, possibly due to all the goats being sacrificed as fuel. Such abominable code certainly does exist in every language ever made, but it takes a great deal more effort to produce the forsaken mess - even poor programmers tend to give up by then and rethink their approach.
Sometimes a fist in the face says more than a thousand honeyed words.
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Hello Everybody, As a software developer that has used VB.NET for several projects over the years, I am used to the look that I sometimes get whenever my VB work comes up in conversation. It says "Oh, that's cute. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to try C#. It's got curly braces and everything!". Those with opinions on whether or not VB.NET is a 'real' programming language or not generally fall into one of three categories: 1. Those that have worked in it and enjoy using it. While it is not my only (or even my main) programming language, I proudly include myself in this group. 2. Those that have tried it and after doing so decide they don't like it because it's too verbose etc. That's completely fine by me, no language is for everybody. 3. Those that have acquired an illogical, extreme hatred for it through an unholy combination of hearsay, rumour and code samples (often VB6) they've seen on the internet. They have never tried it and so are horribly uninformed on the topic. They say things like "VB isn't a real language!" and "VB is a language for babies!". It is with this group that I take issue. Today, I overheard a colleague inflating his own head by bragging about the progress he was making on his C++ course while designing a class in Java with another colleague. He had just finished calling VB a 'baby language' among other things when I caught this little gem: "What's the point in declaring things as private? Just declare everything as public. That way nothing will break." For someone with such a billowing ego when it comes to his experience with 'real' programming languages, that last sentence demonstrates without a doubt that beneath the haughty 'I'm a real programmer' exterior lies a secret - 'I have got no idea what I'm talking about'. This is an example of the VB Stigma in action. People have flaunted their negative opinions of the language to my face even when they know that I have worked on several successful VB.NET projects with other programmers in the past. I find myself having to lead a secret life as 'one of those VB people' to avoid being looked down upon. My question is - why? It is built on exactly the same technology as C#, but I very rarely hear that talked about with the kind of vitriol that some people seem to reserve for Visual Basic. Do some people really need these things '{}' every couple of lines to feel like they're actually programming? In my opinion, for what it's worth, one of the best things about programming is the diverse tool
I've pretty much only used vb6, vbscript and, of course, vb.net from 1.0 through 2.0. I've taken an extended break from doing any dev work and have been learning C# off and on for a few years now but haven't actually tried my hand in putting anything together. I bacame frustrated as I observed fewer and fewer people writing coding tutorials and other examples with VB (including msdn magazine, as I once noted on here). I started to see that nearly everything being written and done was with C#. This trend has continued for several years now. It is because of this that I have decided that I will just switch over and move forward with C# even though everything I already know isn't C#. Without all those examples and how to's that are tremendously avail for C# but not so much with VB.NET (any longer), the choice for me has become more clear. A number of times in the past when I was creating more complex project with VB.NET, I was unable to find the code/example/help I needed or I'd get some example written in C# that I was unable to convert properly (after using converters or asking for help in converting or trying it myself). I've decided to move on from vb.net because .. it appears, most everyone else has (or everyone else that was providing code examples/articles/help). I'm sure if we compare the number of new articles and code examples between the two, we'd see a massive, Massive gap.