So anyway, Linux IDEs...
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
Eclipse! Though Document Integration for C was bad at the time i was coding with it.
Behzad
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
I've been using VIM for a few years, but now hands down for SlickEdit. I fall in love from the very first try. It lets you code in more than 40 programming languages giving good support for autocompletion, refactoring, code navigation, truly awesome multi-head utilization and ability to smoothly handle multi-million line codebases.
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Big corporates could actually more easily utilise it to save money, as it would be cost effective to have administrators that can customise and standardize the internal Linux. One corporate I know of have a network boot Linux distro and any change to the end users can be rolled out in a matter of minutes and a rollback of that is also quite easy, as compared to Windows and yeah I know with an centralized update server the same could potentially be achieved with Windows...
Got to disagree here, or at least point out that its not as clear-cut as you're suggesting. Even if the techs in a big corporate are developing *for* linux, the rest of the company are going to be using windows and some corporate type is not going to want to put up with linux office tools and the rest, especially if they're not technical themselves. There's a good chance they've not even heard of linux either. Then you've got the fact that the IT department that's been hired is trained and experienced in windows admin, the infrastructure is already in place for SMS management and the like. Inertia is a big problem. Kev
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I think that some of us appreciate not having things like this installed by default. Most of the audio programs/software you will get to play music will support mp3 [though some of them the codecs for it are separate due to licensing issues]. Get vlc player?
If it moves, compile it
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
The only Linux IDE I've used is Qt Creator (http://qt.digia.com/[^]). It seemed to work fairly well 'out of the box'. You do need to understand the underlying tool chain (at least that there is one) and some of its requirements. If you are using it for cross-platform development as I was, you need to recognize differences there as well. The Linux and Windows versions did not cooperate well using each other's project files.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default?
People still use that trash lossy format? And yes, people appreciate not having things pre-packed , especially when there are licensing issues. It is not that hard to get support for mp3's with your given media player.
If it moves, compile it
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
Linux... Hmmm... Not ringin any bells... OH! You probably meant Android didn't you. Yeah, I use Eclipse like everyone else. It's not pretty, but it's passable. I can deal with it. I just can't wait till Android really takes off and we see hardware manufacturers writing drivers for it. Then we can finally let Windows rot. Mac having died a long time ago - two years after Jobs. Ok, sorry. I'm just dreamin. Just been getting frustrated with microsoft doing NOTHIN. And Apple going ballistic locking everything down to the floor. Wow. I need another cup of coffee... :wtf:
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What's pretty? To scour the file system for options/configs/settings? Let me make this clear: I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine. I want to *change* settings, not figure out where the file is. I want to add a new update location, not to ls -l the hell out the disk for sources.lst; I want to do sudo apt-get install, not to figure out why after installing debian on my netbook no valid deb sources were present. (That's from a 4 hours ago semi failed debian install - one hour later Mint 12 was downloaded/installed immediately. Go figure.) Thanks for the "click more than one link" hint - I suppose you think I'm dumb, lazy, or both. However, I am considering myself an educated person, with a good sense of what A element click() does.
Nuclear launch detected
You obviously never heard of find, locate, grep, whereis etc. nor of the Linux standards base, which, among others, also contains a filesystem standard . Your ignorance doesn't make Linux bad for development. You also can't expect to properly use a system without knowing how it is supposed to be used.
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For those who are not into the OS for its "freedom", it's usually about saving 50 bucks on OS costs and spending 100+ hours across a couple of years in maintenance and just getting it to work.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Please pardon my language, but that's BS. I use Linux because it's much more convenient when used right, not to save on the licensing costs. Software updates and system maintenance are a PITA with Windows, whereas it's zero effort in Linux. The command line is a joke in Windows, which is why nobody likes to use it. In Linux, it takes less keystrokes than in a GUI to perform even complex tasks, provided you know how to use it, of course. This is also the reason why very few Windows users ever think about automation, whereas it's quite common to script everything on Linux. In all the generations of OSes Microsoft has released so far, it has not yet managed to create a decent file system, so you're really constrained unless you use Linux. Heck, there isn't even a decent file manager available on Windows - explorer is dumb as a brick, and other file managers are way less well integrated with the desktop manager. Until recently, there wasn't even a nice sound manager for Windows - I'm able to play age of empires using Wine, listen to music and have a VoIP phone call at the same time, on Linux, whereas a few years ago you could have just one sound source active at a time. That's why I prefer to use Linux. And I didn't mention anything about resource hunger and performance - W7 runs faster in a VBox VM on my desktop system than on the bare hardware. I similarly dislike OSX, if you're wondering, alhtough what I consider to be flaws in OSX is a different set - it's closed even worse than Windows, has no way of booting into a plain command line, and its GUI is very inconvenient when you need to use lots of windows at the same time. You absolutely need to spend some time when switching from Windows to Linux, but it's not going to happen for just getting it to work. It's simply a learning effort you have to go through. You need to spend learning effort even on a professional powertool, and you expect not to need to learn anything when moving from a toy like a desktop Windows version to a really powerful and featurewise quite rich Unix-like OS?
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Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
A few years back, when I was still using Windows at work, I tried Window media player and it was hate at first sight - it' simply unwieldy, IMO, it's very hard to get it do what I want it to do, not what it was preconfigured to do - and it does a lot by default. So I alway installed winamp. Now, the process on Windows is: google winamp's homepage, find the download link, download and install. On Linux, besides Amarok being installed by default on Kubuntu (unlike distros using Gnome as the default desktop manager, Kubuntu provides a GUI which is IMO very convenient for people switching from Windows), if you just want another player, it's one simple command line: sudo apt-get instsall vlc. I never managed to get something installed as fast on Windows. Of course, there are graphical tools too, but IMO they just make yuo waste time.
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
I definitely don't want an idiot end user to have it easy starting to code on Linux - he'll get a job, and the landscape for comercial Linux software will be full of the same crap as the Windows world. Maybe this will help: http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/. There's a reason why I like my projects to be fully usable from outside an IDE, via simple scripts: it's simply cheaper to be able to run the same setup on your desktop and on the CI system. I've been bitten too often in the past by opaque tools which do some undocumented magic - it's extremely hard to step outside the tool's limits in such cases. My setup usually involves several terminal windows, Eclipse, and a generic text editor (it was EditPlus years ago in Windows, it's Kate on Linux). A piece of advice for coding on Linux: if you come from Windows, you're used to doing everything with just one tool and one technology. That's a bad idea on Linux. Ideally, your project is actually a system of several small, highly specialized tools, with all functionality besides GUIs packed inside command line tools, integrated by scripts, each tool using the technology which is the best fit for it. The motivation for such a setup is that once you get used to it you find you do things faster, with less effort, less code, and the result is better testable and easily automatable - you're unlikely to think about opening up your app for automation when coming from Windows, but it's an important concern on Linux.
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..there's more reasons; for one, it's a great platform for Windows-developers. I kid thee not; it makes one re-think a bit more than just the UI. Small example; Don't you hate installing all tools on a Windows-machine? All those little setups, installers, asking the same bullshit; what location and do you want a Toolbar for IE? Wouldn't it be great if you could
apt-getunder Windows? Write a simple batchfile to install all crap in one go on a fresh system? Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows. I think we'll see more environments in the future where you find different Operating Systems, partly due to that economic fact and the current state of affairs. 50 bucks might not sound like much, but once you're talking about an entire department.. (and think of all the people you'd make happy if you were to announce the company will *not* upgrade to Windows 8 with a touchscreen!*) *) then tell them to sudo their work, and run like HellBastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows.
I have to call this one only half true. There are a variety of apps and services that will handle install, but none of them track updates. So, really, they're only doing half of the job of a Linux package manager, at best.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows.
I have to call this one only half true. There are a variety of apps and services that will handle install, but none of them track updates. So, really, they're only doing half of the job of a Linux package manager, at best.
Most of these apps, like FF (including the Flash-plugin and Java) check their versions themselves, and don't mind interrupting you when all you want is a result. So, when can we expect an article on the subject? :-D
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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You obviously never heard of find, locate, grep, whereis etc. nor of the Linux standards base, which, among others, also contains a filesystem standard . Your ignorance doesn't make Linux bad for development. You also can't expect to properly use a system without knowing how it is supposed to be used.
Guys, your responses are textbook for why more people don't like Linux. Quite frankly, you're needlessly being dicks to this guy when he's expressing valid concerns. Why not take the opportunity to teach and introduce, rather than try to show how much smarter you are? How is somebody supposed to know or even learn about the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard unless somebody helps them out and points them in the right direction? Trying to show off like that just makes you look petty like the comic book guy on the Simpsons. I like Linux and I'm liking it more the more I learn about it. You have to admit, though, that the learning curve is quite high and it's not always easy or straightforward to find the answers to questions or how to do something. I've invested a lot of time learning about Linux and that time is paying off. Should somebody have to invest this time all at once on the front end to begin to start getting use out of Linux? Perhaps it might be better to get somebody hooked and then tell them about all of the cool things they can now begin to learn? Thank heavens for distros like Ubuntu and Mint so that people can see that Linux doesn't have to be so scary. Hopefully they'll get in and discover how fun it can be to learn to configure your computer to behave exactly how you'd like it. I'm really encouraged to see more and more Linux tutorials and help for people just getting started with the OS. We need more of this. For those people that don't want to dig as deeply, though, they shouldn't be left to an incredibly difficult computing experience. Linux is good enough to meet both types of needs.
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
CodeBlocks. It is supported in CMake as build target. I'm comfortable with its tools and how it replaces tabs for four spaces, only for that I configured Geany to do the same. Also note that versions in repositories is usually outdated, It's better to download it from the web site. I have tried many distros and is always the same with this IDE, outdated in repos, even in Ubuntu, thus I have not installed the later release of Ubuntu yet. Have tried Code Lite too and have it installed but in the end I always return to CodeBlocks. It seems your question started a flame war that not necessarily involves IDEs :). I will throw some fire before going to sleep.
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:) I like Linux, it is VERY configurable, VERY flexible, and easy to code for. And fortunately there is loads of good documentation, unlike with Windows, in the net, and a load of good forums. Which makes up for the lack of toughness of installers.
Don't want to be rude. Some people consider me a Linux fan. When I about to start a project I always think first in Linux support, and if possible I begin with the Linux version first. But I encounter invalid your claims. If you want to point out Windows weak points you probably can come with some of them without think a lot in it. But documentation is not one of them, either APIs or applications. In my browser I have MSDN site as a sticky tab. Also if you are using Mono in Linux for C#, the Mono site only has documentation for GTK#, they send you to MSDN for all the standard .Net classes, even the IDE encourages you to go to that site by showing you links at startup. So the site has value not only for Linux users.
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You obviously never heard of find, locate, grep, whereis etc. nor of the Linux standards base, which, among others, also contains a filesystem standard . Your ignorance doesn't make Linux bad for development. You also can't expect to properly use a system without knowing how it is supposed to be used.
Let's suppose for the moment that you thought I am one of the dont-known-how-to-do-a-sudo-apt-get-update-and-I-want-to-do-everything-with-my-mouse whiners, which I agree that are lazy oafs who cannot be bother to do a ls -l | grep "cairo". But I am not considering myself such a newbie - although I admit I earn my living on Win32 land, I have enough experience also on Mac (Tiger up) and Linux (back in the RH 7.2 days). What I am saying is that I have to KNOW where, for example, libflashplayer.so resides, when I want to install Flash on Epiphany (and that's only from this morning). My statement is "why I have to know where the goddamn file is - /etc/bin? /usr/bin? /tmp? /home/user ? - and why the setup does not take care about this. And guess what: there is no viewer (?) for the file when I tried to install. So let's continue (what I enumerate here are my adventures since last Saturday trying to put a distro on my netbook): - Debian net install: too bad your wireless is TKIP, we do only WEP. Ok, I didn't knew this, was somewhere hidden in the docs. My bad. Net cable install. Package fail. Finally I get Debian running. Slow as hell, abort. - Linux Mint 12 LXDE install. Ok, first time saw, didn't like it particularily. How do I change to Gnome (2) ? You can't. Ok, my bad. - Ubuntu 12.10 x64. Install flawless using USB iso. Let's install Mac Lion theme. Added ppa, install step 7 of 12 or so. sudo apt-get install mac-osx-lion-theme-v2. Ah, there is no such package. Although documented. Ok, this is not official, so maybe someone trashed the ppa content on the other side. - Let's get browsing. Install Epiphany, Arora, Midori. No Flash. Try to install. No luck (see above). I need to have a viewer (asked by sudo -i) for a .so. I don't know what is a lib viewer, neither do I care. I want a setup running. Guess is too much for configure/make/make install type of guys. - Cairo Dock (my favorite). Appears and dissapears random. Succeeded to display 3 modal (?) dialogs at a time. Finally I got rid of it. Morale: don't jump into insulting me right of the bat. While I admit I am no linux wizard, I am educated enough to read a forum and fire up a console. But if x guys make a setup, it is THEIR job to make it running. Not mine. Otherwise gimme the source and I'll do it myself. PS. Do you have to know MSI api on Windows to install programs?
Nuclear launch detected
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Guys, your responses are textbook for why more people don't like Linux. Quite frankly, you're needlessly being dicks to this guy when he's expressing valid concerns. Why not take the opportunity to teach and introduce, rather than try to show how much smarter you are? How is somebody supposed to know or even learn about the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard unless somebody helps them out and points them in the right direction? Trying to show off like that just makes you look petty like the comic book guy on the Simpsons. I like Linux and I'm liking it more the more I learn about it. You have to admit, though, that the learning curve is quite high and it's not always easy or straightforward to find the answers to questions or how to do something. I've invested a lot of time learning about Linux and that time is paying off. Should somebody have to invest this time all at once on the front end to begin to start getting use out of Linux? Perhaps it might be better to get somebody hooked and then tell them about all of the cool things they can now begin to learn? Thank heavens for distros like Ubuntu and Mint so that people can see that Linux doesn't have to be so scary. Hopefully they'll get in and discover how fun it can be to learn to configure your computer to behave exactly how you'd like it. I'm really encouraged to see more and more Linux tutorials and help for people just getting started with the OS. We need more of this. For those people that don't want to dig as deeply, though, they shouldn't be left to an incredibly difficult computing experience. Linux is good enough to meet both types of needs.
Obviously the previous reply was just a "yo' mama, Windoze guy" and was adding nothing to the thread (after all, about linux IDEs which are, IMHO, some light years behind what Visual Studio does since VC6; but I digress). It's not so obvious - I described already in the follow-up reply... - even on Ubuntu/Mint how to tweak your machine to get the maximum out of it. And if one has to rely doing gsettings/gconftool-2 in a console instead of a GUI wizard, then we're hitting a wall here. How hard can it be to change a key-value setting in a file which I don't have to know where is, using a syntax as :minimize,maximize,close or minimize,maximize,close: ? Perhaps Florin thinks I should memorize all the GTK/Gnome/whatever fields in order to have the caption buttons or background as I like. Thanks for support!
Nuclear launch detected
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I definitely don't want an idiot end user to have it easy starting to code on Linux - he'll get a job, and the landscape for comercial Linux software will be full of the same crap as the Windows world. Maybe this will help: http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/. There's a reason why I like my projects to be fully usable from outside an IDE, via simple scripts: it's simply cheaper to be able to run the same setup on your desktop and on the CI system. I've been bitten too often in the past by opaque tools which do some undocumented magic - it's extremely hard to step outside the tool's limits in such cases. My setup usually involves several terminal windows, Eclipse, and a generic text editor (it was EditPlus years ago in Windows, it's Kate on Linux). A piece of advice for coding on Linux: if you come from Windows, you're used to doing everything with just one tool and one technology. That's a bad idea on Linux. Ideally, your project is actually a system of several small, highly specialized tools, with all functionality besides GUIs packed inside command line tools, integrated by scripts, each tool using the technology which is the best fit for it. The motivation for such a setup is that once you get used to it you find you do things faster, with less effort, less code, and the result is better testable and easily automatable - you're unlikely to think about opening up your app for automation when coming from Windows, but it's an important concern on Linux.
It's not about idiot end users. (I'm sure the newbies about to try Linux will love this - probably they'll back pedal to XP or OS X immediately). An IDE is much more than a collection of tools running under the same hat. It's about getting a project organized, manageable, not having to type lengthy - and error prone - repetitive command lines, unless you're a some sort of Keith Emerson of command line. It's SCC; search; file groups; partial builds. Management. But I suppose you can, for example, change something in Chrome, edit, test, build, debug, and under 2 minutes using just command line. If that's so, good for you; the rest of us are still in the need for an IDE. And about your advices for coders coming from Windows - do you really think we're so dumb on Windows that we have to fire up an IDE to change a line, or we don't have scripts compiling projects? Or we are doing everything with just one tool, one technology (this one cracks me up). Believe or not, we're pretty much into command line, too, on Win32 world, and we write our own tools if we don't have them. Or perhaps you think the entire audience here is full of VB6 drag and drop guys, I suppose. If you like doing thing using console, by all mean continue to do so. If it's cheaper or not, that's for the user to judge. I suppose there are guys with (tens of) thousands of files which are still interested about a good Linux IDE. Despite the definite no-no you expressed. With little value above derision and despise, IMHO.
Nuclear launch detected
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
How could I forgot about Bjarke Viksoe BVRDE ? Along with a quote that resumes the frustration of a brilliant coder? Lately I have been doing some development on the LINUX and UNIX platforms. And I have quickly come to despise an entire generation of back-bone technologies. I am talking about the tools that make up most of these systems; make, vi, telnet, grep and these kinds of tools. The world would have been a better place if these technologies had been retired 10 years ago. And yet, many users of these systems tends to hail their versatility. If they only would turn their heads away from the terminal screen for a moment, they would see that the world had moved on a long time ago... And Bjarke continues: Anyway, I once promised myself never to use a vi editor because life is too short to learn another move cursor down key-combination, and since there is no such term as "Integrated Development Environment" available in the vocabulary on these platforms, I decided to make one myself. Based from a Windows PC of course. PS Two years ago I recommended this to a colleague which almost went nuts (his words - "I'm spending 80% of the time doing hg and console things instead of coding" - GG). After installing BVRDE, he finished the project in 3 days. Because he focused on code and not on command prompt pride.
Nuclear launch detected