So anyway, Linux IDEs...
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For those who are not into the OS for its "freedom", it's usually about saving 50 bucks on OS costs and spending 100+ hours across a couple of years in maintenance and just getting it to work.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Sivakumar wrote:
For those who are not into the OS for its "freedom",
Just need to accent that first part.
Nish Sivakumar wrote:
it's usually about saving 50 bucks on OS costs
It's usually about $200 if you don't go with an OEM copy isn't it? Up until I got past the introductory period of my programming career, that was still to much money. I used all the open source software that I could anyway, made sense to use the OS that it was built for. Lots of the free stuff people enjoy was made for Linux to begin with, then ported to windows.
If it moves, compile it
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..there's more reasons; for one, it's a great platform for Windows-developers. I kid thee not; it makes one re-think a bit more than just the UI. Small example; Don't you hate installing all tools on a Windows-machine? All those little setups, installers, asking the same bullshit; what location and do you want a Toolbar for IE? Wouldn't it be great if you could
apt-getunder Windows? Write a simple batchfile to install all crap in one go on a fresh system? Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows. I think we'll see more environments in the future where you find different Operating Systems, partly due to that economic fact and the current state of affairs. 50 bucks might not sound like much, but once you're talking about an entire department.. (and think of all the people you'd make happy if you were to announce the company will *not* upgrade to Windows 8 with a touchscreen!*) *) then tell them to sudo their work, and run like HellBastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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I try Ubuntu on a pen drive every time a new version comes out. I was never able to use it beyond a few days. Seriously, I can't play my MP3s without having to install extra stuff? It's even more unlikely now that I will go back to Ubuntu. I used to have a DSL connection at my previous apartment and just plugging in the cable was enough to get Ubuntu online. I don't have DSL at my new place (get lost, Airtel :mad: ) and my MTS data card doesn't work with anything other than Windows.
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
I think that some of us appreciate not having things like this installed by default. Most of the audio programs/software you will get to play music will support mp3 [though some of them the codecs for it are separate due to licensing issues]. Get vlc player?
If it moves, compile it
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Cristian Amarie wrote:
have to configure again and again, almost never in the same way.
Have to configure each piece of software you get [if you don't prefer the defaults], and the options/configs/settings get pretty regular so it's pretty to get the hang of.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
but Linux docs I've saw are HTML versions of man
You should always click more than one link when you do a google search. Lots of things will start getting a lot better if you do.
If it moves, compile it
What's pretty? To scour the file system for options/configs/settings? Let me make this clear: I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine. I want to *change* settings, not figure out where the file is. I want to add a new update location, not to ls -l the hell out the disk for sources.lst; I want to do sudo apt-get install, not to figure out why after installing debian on my netbook no valid deb sources were present. (That's from a 4 hours ago semi failed debian install - one hour later Mint 12 was downloaded/installed immediately. Go figure.) Thanks for the "click more than one link" hint - I suppose you think I'm dumb, lazy, or both. However, I am considering myself an educated person, with a good sense of what A element click() does.
Nuclear launch detected
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What's pretty? To scour the file system for options/configs/settings? Let me make this clear: I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine. I want to *change* settings, not figure out where the file is. I want to add a new update location, not to ls -l the hell out the disk for sources.lst; I want to do sudo apt-get install, not to figure out why after installing debian on my netbook no valid deb sources were present. (That's from a 4 hours ago semi failed debian install - one hour later Mint 12 was downloaded/installed immediately. Go figure.) Thanks for the "click more than one link" hint - I suppose you think I'm dumb, lazy, or both. However, I am considering myself an educated person, with a good sense of what A element click() does.
Nuclear launch detected
Cristian Amarie wrote:
What's pretty? To scour the file system for options/configs/settings?
Let me make this clear: I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine.might be a language barrier. Making changes to preferences is what my statement was about. And the fact that they are all similar, so it's not like a new challenge every time.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine.
Then use the GUI to change them.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
I want to *change* settings, not figure out where the file is.
Settings and configuration files are in the same place all the time. It's a file system standard.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
I want to do sudo apt-get install, not to figure out why after installing debian on my netbook no valid deb sources were present.
I thought you were talking about changing preferences, configurations, or settings. Handling dependancies for apt is another thing entirely.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
That's from a 4 hours ago semi failed debian install - one hour later Mint 12 was downloaded/installed immediately. Go figure.)
I don't even know what to say. It sounds like you need Mint, not debian. This is not the software's fault. Mint and Ubuntu are made for a more "windowsy" experience. I'm happy you got Mint installed.
Cristian Amarie wrote:
Thanks for the "click more than one link" hint - I suppose you think I'm dumb, lazy, or both. However, I am considering myself an educated person, with a good sense of what A element click() does.
I was just saying that you didn't search very hard. Each distro has a website with forums, and all the workings are very well documented in easy to read ways. I have only seen a couple of HTML versions of the man page when searching.
If it moves, compile it
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Don't you hate installing all tools on a Windows-machine? All those little setups, installers, asking the same bullsh*t; what location and do you want a Toolbar for IE? Wouldn't it be great if you could
apt-getunder Windows? Write a simple batchfile to install all crap in one go on a fresh system? Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows.That's what Chocolatey is good for :-) Doesn't work for everything, and you are left with adding product keys to "buyware" apps, but it sure takes a lot of the pain out of package management. The simplest script to install a bunch of packages would look something like this [Powershell - I don't use cmd anymore]:
//or load a list from a text, CSV or JSON file or whatever you wish
$apps = @("git", "SublimeText2", "GoogleChrome", "thunderbird", "skype", "VisualStudio2012Professional", "WHATEVER" )
$apps | %{ cinst $_ }If you use Windows, use it to its fullest! EDIT: :doh: "Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows." - I should read fully before I reply. Well, leave this as an example of what you were saying.
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
Eclipse! Though Document Integration for C was bad at the time i was coding with it.
Behzad
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
I've been using VIM for a few years, but now hands down for SlickEdit. I fall in love from the very first try. It lets you code in more than 40 programming languages giving good support for autocompletion, refactoring, code navigation, truly awesome multi-head utilization and ability to smoothly handle multi-million line codebases.
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Big corporates could actually more easily utilise it to save money, as it would be cost effective to have administrators that can customise and standardize the internal Linux. One corporate I know of have a network boot Linux distro and any change to the end users can be rolled out in a matter of minutes and a rollback of that is also quite easy, as compared to Windows and yeah I know with an centralized update server the same could potentially be achieved with Windows...
Got to disagree here, or at least point out that its not as clear-cut as you're suggesting. Even if the techs in a big corporate are developing *for* linux, the rest of the company are going to be using windows and some corporate type is not going to want to put up with linux office tools and the rest, especially if they're not technical themselves. There's a good chance they've not even heard of linux either. Then you've got the fact that the IT department that's been hired is trained and experienced in windows admin, the infrastructure is already in place for SMS management and the like. Inertia is a big problem. Kev
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I think that some of us appreciate not having things like this installed by default. Most of the audio programs/software you will get to play music will support mp3 [though some of them the codecs for it are separate due to licensing issues]. Get vlc player?
If it moves, compile it
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
The only Linux IDE I've used is Qt Creator (http://qt.digia.com/[^]). It seemed to work fairly well 'out of the box'. You do need to understand the underlying tool chain (at least that there is one) and some of its requirements. If you are using it for cross-platform development as I was, you need to recognize differences there as well. The Linux and Windows versions did not cooperate well using each other's project files.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default?
People still use that trash lossy format? And yes, people appreciate not having things pre-packed , especially when there are licensing issues. It is not that hard to get support for mp3's with your given media player.
If it moves, compile it
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
Linux... Hmmm... Not ringin any bells... OH! You probably meant Android didn't you. Yeah, I use Eclipse like everyone else. It's not pretty, but it's passable. I can deal with it. I just can't wait till Android really takes off and we see hardware manufacturers writing drivers for it. Then we can finally let Windows rot. Mac having died a long time ago - two years after Jobs. Ok, sorry. I'm just dreamin. Just been getting frustrated with microsoft doing NOTHIN. And Apple going ballistic locking everything down to the floor. Wow. I need another cup of coffee... :wtf:
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What's pretty? To scour the file system for options/configs/settings? Let me make this clear: I don't care WHERE are the settings; this is the software's business, not mine. I want to *change* settings, not figure out where the file is. I want to add a new update location, not to ls -l the hell out the disk for sources.lst; I want to do sudo apt-get install, not to figure out why after installing debian on my netbook no valid deb sources were present. (That's from a 4 hours ago semi failed debian install - one hour later Mint 12 was downloaded/installed immediately. Go figure.) Thanks for the "click more than one link" hint - I suppose you think I'm dumb, lazy, or both. However, I am considering myself an educated person, with a good sense of what A element click() does.
Nuclear launch detected
You obviously never heard of find, locate, grep, whereis etc. nor of the Linux standards base, which, among others, also contains a filesystem standard . Your ignorance doesn't make Linux bad for development. You also can't expect to properly use a system without knowing how it is supposed to be used.
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For those who are not into the OS for its "freedom", it's usually about saving 50 bucks on OS costs and spending 100+ hours across a couple of years in maintenance and just getting it to work.
Regards, Nish
My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Please pardon my language, but that's BS. I use Linux because it's much more convenient when used right, not to save on the licensing costs. Software updates and system maintenance are a PITA with Windows, whereas it's zero effort in Linux. The command line is a joke in Windows, which is why nobody likes to use it. In Linux, it takes less keystrokes than in a GUI to perform even complex tasks, provided you know how to use it, of course. This is also the reason why very few Windows users ever think about automation, whereas it's quite common to script everything on Linux. In all the generations of OSes Microsoft has released so far, it has not yet managed to create a decent file system, so you're really constrained unless you use Linux. Heck, there isn't even a decent file manager available on Windows - explorer is dumb as a brick, and other file managers are way less well integrated with the desktop manager. Until recently, there wasn't even a nice sound manager for Windows - I'm able to play age of empires using Wine, listen to music and have a VoIP phone call at the same time, on Linux, whereas a few years ago you could have just one sound source active at a time. That's why I prefer to use Linux. And I didn't mention anything about resource hunger and performance - W7 runs faster in a VBox VM on my desktop system than on the bare hardware. I similarly dislike OSX, if you're wondering, alhtough what I consider to be flaws in OSX is a different set - it's closed even worse than Windows, has no way of booting into a plain command line, and its GUI is very inconvenient when you need to use lots of windows at the same time. You absolutely need to spend some time when switching from Windows to Linux, but it's not going to happen for just getting it to work. It's simply a learning effort you have to go through. You need to spend learning effort even on a professional powertool, and you expect not to need to learn anything when moving from a toy like a desktop Windows version to a really powerful and featurewise quite rich Unix-like OS?
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Some people appreciate not having MP3 support by default? :confused:
loctrice wrote:
Get vlc player?
Yep, that's what I usually end up doing - but I don't like it that there's no out-of-the-box support for MP3 playback. Linux had a super chance to eat into the desktop market when MS released Vista but bungled it. Maybe they're getting a second chance with Windows 8? ;)
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
A few years back, when I was still using Windows at work, I tried Window media player and it was hate at first sight - it' simply unwieldy, IMO, it's very hard to get it do what I want it to do, not what it was preconfigured to do - and it does a lot by default. So I alway installed winamp. Now, the process on Windows is: google winamp's homepage, find the download link, download and install. On Linux, besides Amarok being installed by default on Kubuntu (unlike distros using Gnome as the default desktop manager, Kubuntu provides a GUI which is IMO very convenient for people switching from Windows), if you just want another player, it's one simple command line: sudo apt-get instsall vlc. I never managed to get something installed as fast on Windows. Of course, there are graphical tools too, but IMO they just make yuo waste time.
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I ended up with Codelite. Its OK, after realising you have to install a load of stuff to make it work, 6 sub packages and plugins.... Why isnt this made obvious at the start? COme on guys, of you want Linux to work for an idiot end user you need to sort this out.
I definitely don't want an idiot end user to have it easy starting to code on Linux - he'll get a job, and the landscape for comercial Linux software will be full of the same crap as the Windows world. Maybe this will help: http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/. There's a reason why I like my projects to be fully usable from outside an IDE, via simple scripts: it's simply cheaper to be able to run the same setup on your desktop and on the CI system. I've been bitten too often in the past by opaque tools which do some undocumented magic - it's extremely hard to step outside the tool's limits in such cases. My setup usually involves several terminal windows, Eclipse, and a generic text editor (it was EditPlus years ago in Windows, it's Kate on Linux). A piece of advice for coding on Linux: if you come from Windows, you're used to doing everything with just one tool and one technology. That's a bad idea on Linux. Ideally, your project is actually a system of several small, highly specialized tools, with all functionality besides GUIs packed inside command line tools, integrated by scripts, each tool using the technology which is the best fit for it. The motivation for such a setup is that once you get used to it you find you do things faster, with less effort, less code, and the result is better testable and easily automatable - you're unlikely to think about opening up your app for automation when coming from Windows, but it's an important concern on Linux.
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..there's more reasons; for one, it's a great platform for Windows-developers. I kid thee not; it makes one re-think a bit more than just the UI. Small example; Don't you hate installing all tools on a Windows-machine? All those little setups, installers, asking the same bullshit; what location and do you want a Toolbar for IE? Wouldn't it be great if you could
apt-getunder Windows? Write a simple batchfile to install all crap in one go on a fresh system? Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows. I think we'll see more environments in the future where you find different Operating Systems, partly due to that economic fact and the current state of affairs. 50 bucks might not sound like much, but once you're talking about an entire department.. (and think of all the people you'd make happy if you were to announce the company will *not* upgrade to Windows 8 with a touchscreen!*) *) then tell them to sudo their work, and run like HellBastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows.
I have to call this one only half true. There are a variety of apps and services that will handle install, but none of them track updates. So, really, they're only doing half of the job of a Linux package manager, at best.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Well, there's already two applications that provide such a service under Windows.
I have to call this one only half true. There are a variety of apps and services that will handle install, but none of them track updates. So, really, they're only doing half of the job of a Linux package manager, at best.
Most of these apps, like FF (including the Flash-plugin and Java) check their versions themselves, and don't mind interrupting you when all you want is a result. So, when can we expect an article on the subject? :-D
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] They hate us for our freedom![^]
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You obviously never heard of find, locate, grep, whereis etc. nor of the Linux standards base, which, among others, also contains a filesystem standard . Your ignorance doesn't make Linux bad for development. You also can't expect to properly use a system without knowing how it is supposed to be used.
Guys, your responses are textbook for why more people don't like Linux. Quite frankly, you're needlessly being dicks to this guy when he's expressing valid concerns. Why not take the opportunity to teach and introduce, rather than try to show how much smarter you are? How is somebody supposed to know or even learn about the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard unless somebody helps them out and points them in the right direction? Trying to show off like that just makes you look petty like the comic book guy on the Simpsons. I like Linux and I'm liking it more the more I learn about it. You have to admit, though, that the learning curve is quite high and it's not always easy or straightforward to find the answers to questions or how to do something. I've invested a lot of time learning about Linux and that time is paying off. Should somebody have to invest this time all at once on the front end to begin to start getting use out of Linux? Perhaps it might be better to get somebody hooked and then tell them about all of the cool things they can now begin to learn? Thank heavens for distros like Ubuntu and Mint so that people can see that Linux doesn't have to be so scary. Hopefully they'll get in and discover how fun it can be to learn to configure your computer to behave exactly how you'd like it. I'm really encouraged to see more and more Linux tutorials and help for people just getting started with the OS. We need more of this. For those people that don't want to dig as deeply, though, they shouldn't be left to an incredibly difficult computing experience. Linux is good enough to meet both types of needs.