How Would You Handle This?
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
and committing you to a very unreasonable phased payment approach
There's noting unreasonable at all about the pay approach. This is typical of fixed rate projects. You break it into phases, and at the end of each phase you invoice them & get paid.
But I have thirty grand in unpaid invoices from before I learned better. That is almost a down payment on a nice sports car. Typical, btw, is in the eye of the beholder. I would require half up front, and then milestone payments. But then, I no longer do fixed projects. Not worth it.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Did you tell company B that you were working for company A currently? If so they should realize and appreciate that you are still obligated to A. If not you might try cloning or dazzle them with bullshit cause you created a potential mess.
VS2010/Atmel Studio 6.0 ToDo Manager Extension
Version 3.0 now available. There is no place like 127.0.0.1Mike Hankey wrote:
If not you might try cloning or dazzle them with bullsh*t cause you created a potential mess.
This gave me a good laugh. :thumbsup:
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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I am working on a hourly rate contract job with Company A that's going to run until the end of March. It's 40 hrs a week. I also just signed a fixed rate 6 month DOS to WPF conversion contract with Company B. The folks at company B have indicated that they would like me to put in 25-30 a week. It's remote so I can work on it whenever I want, however, they made it clear during negotiations that they would really like me to make this a priority and be available during the days. They have even said they wanted me to phase out the other job with Company A. They have started sending me meeting invites that conflict with this day job at Company A. I'm a contractor here, so I can take the day off, but I don't get paid for it. Thing is, the gig with Company A is 40 hours a week, and I get paid every other week. The gig with Company B is only 25-30 hours a week and I get paid at the end of each phase. I'm ok with the pay arrangements because I get both regular pay and a fat check at the end of each phase. Each phase runs 4-6 weeks. I like both gigs, and the people at both. I get alone well with all of them. But I need to communicate to the people at Company B that it's unreasonable to stop working for Company A for less hours and less frequent pay. How would you handle this? What would you say? Thanks
You're getting good advice here. Remember that this arrangement is a two way street, and they don't own you. Be professional, but don't be afraid to push back. Now, the OP has some stuff in it that worries me: indicated that they would like me to put in 25-30 a week. It's remote so I can work on it whenever I want, however, they made it clear during negotiations that they would really like me to make this a priority and be available during the days. They have even said they wanted me to phase out the other job with Company A. They have started sending me meeting invites that conflict with this day job at Company A. I'm a contractor here, so I can take the day off, but I don't get paid for it. Do you see the problem? What is in the contract? Who is your contract contact? You need to have a heart to heart right now to clarify the situation. As another has a grandfather who so eloquently phrased the situation... if they want you full time, and at their whim, that will cost more.
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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zephaneas wrote:
Not sure how you came up with that, as I never said or implied that.
They are setting up meetings at times that are convenient to them. The only alternative, for them, is to have meetings that are convenient to you. There's an implication there that the times won't be convenient for them. And of course they'd prefer that you were available during the day - after all, that's most likely when they are available. Suppose they have questions; when do you think you should answer them?
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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But I have thirty grand in unpaid invoices from before I learned better. That is almost a down payment on a nice sports car. Typical, btw, is in the eye of the beholder. I would require half up front, and then milestone payments. But then, I no longer do fixed projects. Not worth it.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Suppose they have questions; when do you think you should answer them?
Um, when they ask? I didn't say I wasn't available during the day. I said I wouldn't be working their project during the day.
But by answering the questions for company B, you are short changing company A (and by answering questions for company B on company A's time, you are working on their project). Company A are paying you for your undivided attention. The point to remember here is that you are contracting for the company - this is a different relationship to being a software vendor. Also, what happens when the question that company B asks you necessitates a 2 hour design session where the details are fine tuned? Neither company A or company B are being unreasonable here. From what you posted, company B are happy to have a remote worker, which is fine, and they want that worker during office hours, which is entirely reasonable. I know you want to have your cake and eat it here, but it's pretty damn obvious you can't. If you can't provide the service to company B that they want (and this includes being available to them at times that are convenient to them) then you should let them know and let someone else take on the work for company B.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
and committing you to a very unreasonable phased payment approach
There's noting unreasonable at all about the pay approach. This is typical of fixed rate projects. You break it into phases, and at the end of each phase you invoice them & get paid.
Hi there I've been contracting for best part of twenty five years now and reached the conclusion many years ago you can only do one sizeable coding job at a time, if you are a dedicated ( read obsessed and fixated ) person you will be totally engrossed in *only one project* , I've heard of many *experts* but have never actually met one that impressed me, people supposedly working with me constantly answering their mobiles to other clients ( see where I'm going here ?) And just generally pissing people off and pleasing no one except themselves. Do one thing and do it properly , and don't be greedy - leave that to the pros - if you were one you wouldn't be asking your question here or anywhere else. I wish you luck
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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a) yes b) yes c) I think that's what they're hoping for d) I asked, and they said now, as they have had 6 other contractors come in before me and got burned. When I asked, they came back the next day & said that they really like my work and are happy with me, but they want me in the office for the duration of the project.
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I am working on a hourly rate contract job with Company A that's going to run until the end of March. It's 40 hrs a week. I also just signed a fixed rate 6 month DOS to WPF conversion contract with Company B. The folks at company B have indicated that they would like me to put in 25-30 a week. It's remote so I can work on it whenever I want, however, they made it clear during negotiations that they would really like me to make this a priority and be available during the days. They have even said they wanted me to phase out the other job with Company A. They have started sending me meeting invites that conflict with this day job at Company A. I'm a contractor here, so I can take the day off, but I don't get paid for it. Thing is, the gig with Company A is 40 hours a week, and I get paid every other week. The gig with Company B is only 25-30 hours a week and I get paid at the end of each phase. I'm ok with the pay arrangements because I get both regular pay and a fat check at the end of each phase. Each phase runs 4-6 weeks. I like both gigs, and the people at both. I get alone well with all of them. But I need to communicate to the people at Company B that it's unreasonable to stop working for Company A for less hours and less frequent pay. How would you handle this? What would you say? Thanks
Be upfront. Maybe you can tell them that if they can come up with a comprimise, you will go to Company A, and see if you can have the mornings free to work on Company B. Or possibly and extended lunch period to work for Company B.
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But I have thirty grand in unpaid invoices from before I learned better. That is almost a down payment on a nice sports car. Typical, btw, is in the eye of the beholder. I would require half up front, and then milestone payments. But then, I no longer do fixed projects. Not worth it.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I have thirty grand in unpaid invoices from before I learned better.
:omg: OMFG. What steps have you taken to rectify this????????
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Hi there I've been contracting for best part of twenty five years now and reached the conclusion many years ago you can only do one sizeable coding job at a time, if you are a dedicated ( read obsessed and fixated ) person you will be totally engrossed in *only one project* , I've heard of many *experts* but have never actually met one that impressed me, people supposedly working with me constantly answering their mobiles to other clients ( see where I'm going here ?) And just generally pissing people off and pleasing no one except themselves. Do one thing and do it properly , and don't be greedy - leave that to the pros - if you were one you wouldn't be asking your question here or anywhere else. I wish you luck
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
pkfox wrote:
you can only do one sizeable coding job at a time
:thumbsup: I only ever have one main client at a given time, but do plenty of other stuff around the edges. Currently my main client takes up 3 days per week, leaving me the other two days to fit in my other clients and paperwork... it's an excellent situation.
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
I have thirty grand in unpaid invoices from before I learned better.
:omg: OMFG. What steps have you taken to rectify this????????
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage (fixed prices and performance based payment). The OP is in a classic bind that all consultants run up against, the only difference is he has an hourly contract as well.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage (fixed prices and performance based payment). The OP is in a classic bind that all consultants run up against, the only difference is he has an hourly contract as well.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage (fixed prices and performance based payment).
This is entirely untrue. I've been working this way for 25+ years, and I routinely take on 2 contracts. Some fixed rate, some hourly. I don't let the pay situation get to the point where it's $30K behind. Truth is, it's only happened once, and I stopped development until I got the check. They never missed another payment.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
The OP is in a classic bind that all consultants run up against, the only difference is he has an hourly contract as well.
I don't think I'm in any bind at all, aside from a new company wanting more of my time. Considering I could be out of work, it's not a bind at all. I'm good at what I do, and they know it, so they keep calling me back. They know that sometimes I'm not as available as other times, and they live with it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage (fixed prices and performance based payment). The OP is in a classic bind that all consultants run up against, the only difference is he has an hourly contract as well.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage
Ummm... I have had my company for almost 11 years... I have been stitched up to the tune of <$1000... $500 of which I'm still actively pursuing... I'm astonished that he is out of pocket $30 grand...
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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Hi there I've been contracting for best part of twenty five years now and reached the conclusion many years ago you can only do one sizeable coding job at a time, if you are a dedicated ( read obsessed and fixated ) person you will be totally engrossed in *only one project* , I've heard of many *experts* but have never actually met one that impressed me, people supposedly working with me constantly answering their mobiles to other clients ( see where I'm going here ?) And just generally pissing people off and pleasing no one except themselves. Do one thing and do it properly , and don't be greedy - leave that to the pros - if you were one you wouldn't be asking your question here or anywhere else. I wish you luck
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
pkfox wrote:
Hi there I've been contracting for best part of twenty five years now and reached the conclusion many years ago you can only do one sizeable coding job at a time
I also have 25+ years of experience, and I routinely take on a second job. I do that primarily because you don't know when a job will unexpectedly end, or when the next one will come along.
pkfox wrote:
And just generally pissing people off and pleasing no one except themselves. Do one thing and do it properly , and don't be greedy - leave that to the pros - if you were one you wouldn't be asking your question here or anywhere else. I wish you luck
- No one's pissed off. They just decided they want more of me. They knew going into it that I was doing this after 5pm. Their issue, not mine. 2) How is me trying to earn a living being greedy? way out of line there. If I solely did one gig at a time I'd have breaks between work and no gaurentee of when my next contract would come, so I don't turn them down when they do comea long. it's called a client base. Being self employed means keeping new clients & work coming int. I have also subcontracted work out, when needed. 3) I AM a pro. I didn't ask the question here because I didn't know what to do. I just wanted to see how other's have handled it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage (fixed prices and performance based payment).
This is entirely untrue. I've been working this way for 25+ years, and I routinely take on 2 contracts. Some fixed rate, some hourly. I don't let the pay situation get to the point where it's $30K behind. Truth is, it's only happened once, and I stopped development until I got the check. They never missed another payment.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
The OP is in a classic bind that all consultants run up against, the only difference is he has an hourly contract as well.
I don't think I'm in any bind at all, aside from a new company wanting more of my time. Considering I could be out of work, it's not a bind at all. I'm good at what I do, and they know it, so they keep calling me back. They know that sometimes I'm not as available as other times, and they live with it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
I might suggest you have been both lucky and smart, I used to network with a bunch of cosultants when I was doing it in the 90s and all had a tale of losing money to a recalcitrant client. The OP is looking at 70 hrs a week and time demands from multiple clients, this is so common in that industry it is classic, he needs to work out how he wants to negotiate around the needs of his clients.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I might suggest you have been both lucky and smart, I used to network with a bunch of cosultants when I was doing it in the 90s and all had a tale of losing money to a recalcitrant client. The OP is looking at 70 hrs a week and time demands from multiple clients, this is so common in that industry it is classic, he needs to work out how he wants to negotiate around the needs of his clients.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I might suggest you have been both lucky and smart
More lucky than smart ;)
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Why do you sound so astonished, this happens to most developers if they go through the consulting stage
Ummm... I have had my company for almost 11 years... I have been stitched up to the tune of <$1000... $500 of which I'm still actively pursuing... I'm astonished that he is out of pocket $30 grand...
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
I've got to admit the amount is large but I know I was out of pocket around $10k, but them I'm a lousy businessman and eventually went into straight contracting and have never been more comfortable. I really wish I had a decent business partner, I could do the development and even the sales (getting the work) just could not run the business :sigh:
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I've got to admit the amount is large but I know I was out of pocket around $10k, but them I'm a lousy businessman and eventually went into straight contracting and have never been more comfortable. I really wish I had a decent business partner, I could do the development and even the sales (getting the work) just could not run the business :sigh:
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I know I was out of pocket around $10k
Did you ever recover that?
Silence is golden... but duct tape is silver!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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I am working on a hourly rate contract job with Company A that's going to run until the end of March. It's 40 hrs a week. I also just signed a fixed rate 6 month DOS to WPF conversion contract with Company B. The folks at company B have indicated that they would like me to put in 25-30 a week. It's remote so I can work on it whenever I want, however, they made it clear during negotiations that they would really like me to make this a priority and be available during the days. They have even said they wanted me to phase out the other job with Company A. They have started sending me meeting invites that conflict with this day job at Company A. I'm a contractor here, so I can take the day off, but I don't get paid for it. Thing is, the gig with Company A is 40 hours a week, and I get paid every other week. The gig with Company B is only 25-30 hours a week and I get paid at the end of each phase. I'm ok with the pay arrangements because I get both regular pay and a fat check at the end of each phase. Each phase runs 4-6 weeks. I like both gigs, and the people at both. I get alone well with all of them. But I need to communicate to the people at Company B that it's unreasonable to stop working for Company A for less hours and less frequent pay. How would you handle this? What would you say? Thanks
How would I handle it? Frankly I wouldn't have overstretched myself in the first place. That said, it sounds like your negotiations with B weren't clear - as they are only now saying they want you to spend 25-30 hrs a week What was originally said? The only course I can see (other than terminating your contract with one or other) is a compromise on time. Assuming your contract with A stipulates 40 hrs and they're not movable, then can you change WHICH 40 hrs? e.g. can you work one or two days 'offset' by an hour or two (start at 10:00 for example) It's quite reasonable for a company to expect your undivided attention when they are paying you - so that's what I would do. Otherwise, if I needed to keep both contracts, I would possibly see about taking 1/2 day or so off from A on a regular basis, assuming B are willing to compromise and use that time for any meetings. If there are no compromises possible as I suggest, then your only alternative is simply to say to B that you can't do it - you're not movable - give them the amount of hours (and approximate times you can do the work, and be firm.
.\\axxx
