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For you no guns solution people

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  • S Slacker007

    Nish Sivakumar wrote:

    Yeah, why make a big deal of the difference between life and death?

    Life and death, are not the issue here. The intent to do harm to anyone, children in this case, is the issue. Whether he just injured the child or killed the child is inconsequential, he intended to do harm to the child. How do we deal with intent to harm/kill?

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    Nish Nishant
    wrote on last edited by
    #62

    Slacker007 wrote:

    How do we deal with intent to harm/kill?

    You cannot. There'll always be people with that intent, and depending on what weapons they have access to, the bigger the damage they can cause.

    Regards, Nish


    My technology blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

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    • S Slacker007

      Nish Sivakumar wrote:

      Yeah, why make a big deal of the difference between life and death?

      Life and death, are not the issue here. The intent to do harm to anyone, children in this case, is the issue. Whether he just injured the child or killed the child is inconsequential, he intended to do harm to the child. How do we deal with intent to harm/kill?

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      pt1401
      wrote on last edited by
      #63

      > Whether he just injured the child or killed the child is inconsequential The child and his/her parents would probably think it's *very* consequential. If he'd had a gun they'd have been dead. As it was, they lived. You may think the difference doesn't matter, but if it was *your* life???

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      • R realJSOP

        I thought we were talking about mass shootings.

        ".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
        -----
        You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
        -----
        "Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997

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        pt1401
        wrote on last edited by
        #64

        For me, a couple of mass shootings per year *is* a lot. And there's the nub of the issue: is a couple of mass shootings per year an acceptable price to pay for your 'right to bear arms'? As long as the majority decide that it is, you'll carry on getting a couple of mass shootings each year.

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        • P pt1401

          For me, a couple of mass shootings per year *is* a lot. And there's the nub of the issue: is a couple of mass shootings per year an acceptable price to pay for your 'right to bear arms'? As long as the majority decide that it is, you'll carry on getting a couple of mass shootings each year.

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          realJSOP
          wrote on last edited by
          #65

          pt1401 wrote:

          And there's the nub of the issue: is a couple of mass shootings per year an acceptable price to pay for your 'right to bear arms'?

          Yes.

          pt1401 wrote:

          As long as the majority decide that it is,

          And I really hope they do...

          pt1401 wrote:

          you'll carry on getting a couple of mass shootings each year.

          In a world full of people, some are gonna flip out. That can't be avoided. Let's look at the parents who may not have had their guns properly secured. That hasn't been explored by the media yet (or maybe it was, and they simply don't find relevance in ALL of the facts). I don't even have kids, and with the exception of the gun I carry with me at all times, all the rest are in the gun safe.

          ".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
          -----
          You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
          -----
          "Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997

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          • P pt1401

            You can't stop the intent. What you could do is make it more difficult for someone who has the intent to access the weapons that allow him to carry out the intent so easily. The problem is, of course, that the right to carry arms is embedded in the USA constitution. There's an argument that the right to carry arms is 150 years out of date and needs changing, but amending the constitution a *big* deal. I don't have the figures to hand so am going on gut feel: let's suppose there are 50 indiscriminate murders in schools & colleges each year in the states. I'm guessing there are about a million students in any year, 1 in 300 of the population. So a 1/20,000 chance of your child being murdered by a rogue gunman in school/college. Let's also assume that 10% of Americans take up their constitutional right to bear arms. That's 30 million people in round numbers. If an attempt to introduce gun legislation is made, 30 million people lose their rights when there's only a 1 in 20,000 chance that their children won't die because of it. It's just not going to happen and the killings will continue.

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            realJSOP
            wrote on last edited by
            #66

            There are over 85 million legal gun owners, and the number is increasing every day. That's more than 1/3 of the population, and over 50% of the portion of the population that can legally own a gun.

            ".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
            -----
            You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
            -----
            "Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997

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            • T thebeekeeper

              The same document also gave us the 3/5ths compromise. Are you willing to stick by that?

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              jschell
              wrote on last edited by
              #67

              thebeekeeper wrote:

              The same document also gave us the 3/5ths compromise. Are you willing to stick by that?

              Nonsensical. Because the same document also gave the US the ability to change it if enough people wanted that change. Which is why what you are referring to is no longer relevant. And there is not even close to enough people that want the 2nd amendment repealed. And there is little evidence of growing popularity either.

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              • S Smart K8

                Read these, if you are able to step past your determination that you're - of course - right: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11130511[^] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447364/[^] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17070975[^] It's not that easy of a correlation. There are many underlaying factors. But gun availability is a major one of them. Sometimes people are unable to realize that they're standing on the wrong side, because they're hiding behind the simplified models of reality, and require obvious and meaningless evidence. If that is not presented - as it solves nothing - they consider it as a proof of them being correct. As I already said. It works in Europe and Japan (because you really can't - or rather want - to compare US to third world countries), so you're beating a dead horse - so to speak. I know of nobody, who would know, where to obtain an illegal weapon. Some of us know where to probably obtain a legal one, but it would take complex expensive courses, then to buy an rather expensive gun. So if you get really mad with someone you don't go for gun, and kill him, but at best beat him (then again, I never felt this urge ever). The guns in Europe are usually for one of four major reasons: 1) robbing the banks (usually as a threat) 2) underground disputes - illegal ownership 3) hunt, sports, police, etc. usually harmless legal means 4) properly tested legal owners - hobby, or for a feeling of protection in US it's also: 5) almost anyone - the untested owners (the emotionally unstable people, people who doesn't even know how to handle the gun properly, you name it...)

                The wisdom is to see things truthfully.

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                jschell
                wrote on last edited by
                #68

                Smart K8 wrote:

                Read these, if you are able to step past your determination that you're - of course - right:

                Two of the three have nothing to do with other countries. The first doesn't demonstrate a direct correlation but merely demonstrates more. And I never said that wasn't the case.

                Smart K8 wrote:

                It's not that easy of a correlation. There are many underlaying factors

                I agree. Which one might suppose is why I specifically said "direct correlation".

                Smart K8 wrote:

                As I already said. It works in Europe and Japan (because you really can't - or rather want - to compare US to third world countries)

                And my point now and then is that there is a different culture in other countries. How many bar brawls do you think happen in Japan versus the US? In comparing the US and the UK how many bar brawls do you think degenerate in to one or more people wanting to seriously injure the other party? (Certainly one UK citizen told me that he was completely surprised how US bar fights were more intense and violent than UK ones.)

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                • P pt1401

                  For me, a couple of mass shootings per year *is* a lot. And there's the nub of the issue: is a couple of mass shootings per year an acceptable price to pay for your 'right to bear arms'? As long as the majority decide that it is, you'll carry on getting a couple of mass shootings each year.

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                  jschell
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #69

                  pt1401 wrote:

                  As long as the majority decide that it is, you'll carry on getting a couple of mass shootings each year.

                  It requires quite a bit more than a majority to change the US Constitution.

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                  • J jschell

                    Smart K8 wrote:

                    Read these, if you are able to step past your determination that you're - of course - right:

                    Two of the three have nothing to do with other countries. The first doesn't demonstrate a direct correlation but merely demonstrates more. And I never said that wasn't the case.

                    Smart K8 wrote:

                    It's not that easy of a correlation. There are many underlaying factors

                    I agree. Which one might suppose is why I specifically said "direct correlation".

                    Smart K8 wrote:

                    As I already said. It works in Europe and Japan (because you really can't - or rather want - to compare US to third world countries)

                    And my point now and then is that there is a different culture in other countries. How many bar brawls do you think happen in Japan versus the US? In comparing the US and the UK how many bar brawls do you think degenerate in to one or more people wanting to seriously injure the other party? (Certainly one UK citizen told me that he was completely surprised how US bar fights were more intense and violent than UK ones.)

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                    Smart K8
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #70

                    OK, let's play your game. Can you then please show me the study to confirm a direct correlation, that the culture is the cause? (moreover in favor of the current situation, not just any type of correlation) Because there are plenty studies showing that availability is one of the major factors. The conclusion that culture is the cause can probably explain (partially) the 200 times more gun induced deaths in comparison to Japan. But it is hardly different from all the cultures in the world. The major cultural difference would be probably the increased need to own a gun, thus proving my point about availability causes. But I guess the study you'll show me, will probably have roots of culture difference causing this pinpointed. :) regards, Kate

                    The wisdom is to see things truthfully.

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                    • S Slacker007

                      It's a perfect time. As I said to Nish, the "intent" takes issue with me, not the gun laws. I gave the stabbing link, which many in China actually end up in death, as an example of mass harm to children, without a gun. You don't need a gun, to harm.

                      Christian Graus wrote:

                      I'd rather face a madman with a knife

                      I would pay good money to see this.

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                      Christian Graus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #71

                      I meant if I must face a madman, I'd rather he not have a gun, than me have one, too.

                      Slacker007 wrote:

                      You don't need a gun, to harm.

                      This statement is both true, and stupid. If you joined the army, would you expect to be given a gun, or would you say 'I don't need a gun to harm people' ?

                      Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                      • C Christian Graus

                        I meant if I must face a madman, I'd rather he not have a gun, than me have one, too.

                        Slacker007 wrote:

                        You don't need a gun, to harm.

                        This statement is both true, and stupid. If you joined the army, would you expect to be given a gun, or would you say 'I don't need a gun to harm people' ?

                        Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #72

                        I haven't been shot yet, though I'd gladly take a bullet for my 2nd Amendment rights.

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                        • L Lost User

                          I haven't been shot yet, though I'd gladly take a bullet for my 2nd Amendment rights.

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                          Christian Graus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #73

                          Of course. Because you're an idiot.

                          Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                          • C Christian Graus

                            Of course. Because you're an idiot.

                            Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #74

                            It's amazing isn't it? The complete suspension of all logic and reason in favor of an old document, written in a different time, and by men who's intentions we can only guess at and who could never have guessed at the world we find ourselves living in today.

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                            • L Lost User

                              It's amazing isn't it? The complete suspension of all logic and reason in favor of an old document, written in a different time, and by men who's intentions we can only guess at and who could never have guessed at the world we find ourselves living in today.

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                              Christian Graus
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #75

                              I think anyone with grade 3 English can see that the original intent was not what is defended today

                              Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                              • C Christian Graus

                                I think anyone with grade 3 English can see that the original intent was not what is defended today

                                Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                Lost User
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #76

                                Christian Graus wrote:

                                I think anyone with grade 3 English can see that the original intent was not what is defended today

                                So those defending it are incapable of comprehension at a grade 3 level? I suspect that's not the case and in fact they've suspended all reason due to indoctrination. That's a lot easier to do when you can defend your point of view with "it is written...". It all seems very familiar to me.

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                                • L Lost User

                                  Christian Graus wrote:

                                  I think anyone with grade 3 English can see that the original intent was not what is defended today

                                  So those defending it are incapable of comprehension at a grade 3 level? I suspect that's not the case and in fact they've suspended all reason due to indoctrination. That's a lot easier to do when you can defend your point of view with "it is written...". It all seems very familiar to me.

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                                  Christian Graus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #77

                                  Yes, I agree. The issue is not general stupidity, but a blind spot due to indoctrination. I meant a grade 3 reader with no preconceived ideas.

                                  Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                  • C Christian Graus

                                    Yes, I agree. The issue is not general stupidity, but a blind spot due to indoctrination. I meant a grade 3 reader with no preconceived ideas.

                                    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                    Lost User
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #78

                                    Are you purposefully ignoring my not so subtle analogy? :)

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                                    • L Lost User

                                      Are you purposefully ignoring my not so subtle analogy? :)

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                                      Christian Graus
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #79

                                      *grin* yes, because it's not apt in any way I can think of :-)

                                      Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                      • C Christian Graus

                                        *grin* yes, because it's not apt in any way I can think of :-)

                                        Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                        Lost User
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #80

                                        Christian Graus wrote:

                                        *grin* yes, because it's not apt in any way I can think of

                                        Really? You don't think there's some similarity between someone who say, rejects gay marriage, because they interpret the bible as saying it is unholy and someone like John Simonds who'd rather see kids educated remotely, in isolation from each other, as a solution to them being killed at a school because his revered constitution can't be challenged? Or someone that says the odd mass killing is a reasonable price to pay for their 'freedom'?

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                                        • L Lost User

                                          Christian Graus wrote:

                                          *grin* yes, because it's not apt in any way I can think of

                                          Really? You don't think there's some similarity between someone who say, rejects gay marriage, because they interpret the bible as saying it is unholy and someone like John Simonds who'd rather see kids educated remotely, in isolation from each other, as a solution to them being killed at a school because his revered constitution can't be challenged? Or someone that says the odd mass killing is a reasonable price to pay for their 'freedom'?

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                                          Christian Graus
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #81

                                          Well, perhaps. I can see a definite connection between religion and the US view on guns. I thought you were trying to be pointed about something *I* believe.

                                          Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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