Referenda
-
Referenda are not democracy. We have a democracy, everyone gets the chance to vote for someone to represent them. All those elected get access to all the information and advice they need to make the correct decisions for the country. Saying "What do you want us to do?" and throwing the responsibility back to the people just removes all the information and advice and intelligence from the decision making process.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
ChrisElston wrote:
Saying "What do you want us to do?" and throwing the responsibility back to the people just...
... Reinforces democratic principles, by allowing the people to have a direct say on a major issue that is too big for a bunch of self-interested politicians and their rich-buddy backers to decide.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
Interesting, although predictable discussion being generated here. I'm quite happy for people to vote in referendums - seems a good idea to me. (The plural of referendum is referendums - referendum is a gerund, and therefore has no plural in Latin - there got that off my chest!)
-
Interesting, although predictable discussion being generated here. I'm quite happy for people to vote in referendums - seems a good idea to me. (The plural of referendum is referendums - referendum is a gerund, and therefore has no plural in Latin - there got that off my chest!)
It was discussed in the house[^]
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
-
Read Chris's link above.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum? One little fact, not made clear in the article, is that, yes, we do a huge amount of trade with the EU (AS A WHOLE), but a large proportion of that is done with the Rep.of Ireland, our only land border! They would continue to trade freely with us as we are their biggest market, and always have been. The poles are desperately concerned with keeping us in for we are the biggest market for eggs. One thing you should know about eggs. In the UK it is now illegal to battery farm chickens for eggs, but it is not illegal in Poland. So we buy all the battery farmed eggs from Poland and pack them into boxes in the UK so that they get the little lion mark. This indicates that they are British, and therefore not Battery Farmed. Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep shit. And as stated in the article, the Human Rights were invoked by the Council of Europe, but they are ENFORCED by the European Court. Membership of which is contingent on being in the EU. We could leave the EU, leaving the European Court, and do some really weird shit like 'Make and Enforce Our Own Laws'. The working time directive point only goes to show how Johnny Foreigner doesn't get it by showing the AVERAGE working week as being lower. So what? The point is that they are limiting the maximum. If I want to work more hours I am being barred from doing so. Is that freedom or control? They can spin it any way they like, but I will be voting for the Exit.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
-
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum? One little fact, not made clear in the article, is that, yes, we do a huge amount of trade with the EU (AS A WHOLE), but a large proportion of that is done with the Rep.of Ireland, our only land border! They would continue to trade freely with us as we are their biggest market, and always have been. The poles are desperately concerned with keeping us in for we are the biggest market for eggs. One thing you should know about eggs. In the UK it is now illegal to battery farm chickens for eggs, but it is not illegal in Poland. So we buy all the battery farmed eggs from Poland and pack them into boxes in the UK so that they get the little lion mark. This indicates that they are British, and therefore not Battery Farmed. Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep shit. And as stated in the article, the Human Rights were invoked by the Council of Europe, but they are ENFORCED by the European Court. Membership of which is contingent on being in the EU. We could leave the EU, leaving the European Court, and do some really weird shit like 'Make and Enforce Our Own Laws'. The working time directive point only goes to show how Johnny Foreigner doesn't get it by showing the AVERAGE working week as being lower. So what? The point is that they are limiting the maximum. If I want to work more hours I am being barred from doing so. Is that freedom or control? They can spin it any way they like, but I will be voting for the Exit.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
Important point, the European Court of Human Rights is a vehicle of the Council of Europe, not the EU.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
-
Important point, the European Court of Human Rights is a vehicle of the Council of Europe, not the EU.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Agreed, but one cannot opt out of the Jurisdiction of the Court and remain a member of the EU. I still feel we are better placed to make and enforce our own laws. We can still have a British Bill Of Rights without recourse to the ECHR.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
-
So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
The reason you are smart is exactly because you know that there are too many unknown variables to be able to make a sensible decision. I don't believe that we will get a vote - I am on the cynical side of seeing it as the Tories as trying to buy votes. Personally I would like to see our fishing grounds reclaimed - that would be a good start as far as I am concerned irrespective of the whole Europe thing.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
-
Interesting, although predictable discussion being generated here. I'm quite happy for people to vote in referendums - seems a good idea to me. (The plural of referendum is referendums - referendum is a gerund, and therefore has no plural in Latin - there got that off my chest!)
-
-
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum? One little fact, not made clear in the article, is that, yes, we do a huge amount of trade with the EU (AS A WHOLE), but a large proportion of that is done with the Rep.of Ireland, our only land border! They would continue to trade freely with us as we are their biggest market, and always have been. The poles are desperately concerned with keeping us in for we are the biggest market for eggs. One thing you should know about eggs. In the UK it is now illegal to battery farm chickens for eggs, but it is not illegal in Poland. So we buy all the battery farmed eggs from Poland and pack them into boxes in the UK so that they get the little lion mark. This indicates that they are British, and therefore not Battery Farmed. Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep shit. And as stated in the article, the Human Rights were invoked by the Council of Europe, but they are ENFORCED by the European Court. Membership of which is contingent on being in the EU. We could leave the EU, leaving the European Court, and do some really weird shit like 'Make and Enforce Our Own Laws'. The working time directive point only goes to show how Johnny Foreigner doesn't get it by showing the AVERAGE working week as being lower. So what? The point is that they are limiting the maximum. If I want to work more hours I am being barred from doing so. Is that freedom or control? They can spin it any way they like, but I will be voting for the Exit.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum?
Because, and this is my original point, the vast majority of those voting in any referendum have no idea what the actual facts are, nor do they understand what any they are aware of actually mean.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
-
So Dave is going to give everyone in the UK the chance to say if they want to be in or out of Europe (will the Scots have left the UK by then?). The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective. I don't want people like me contributing to major decisions for the country and its future. I'm an ill-informed moron. I don't want MPs making those decisions either. They're well-informed morons. I want them to ask people who are well-informed and not morons, and then do what they say is best for the long term future of the country. Leave me out of it, I make stupid decisions, and I'm damn sight smarter than most people I know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
I agree that uninformed people voting on major issues is not ideal. However, if you don't do that then you have to have some sort of test for 'well-informed', and too often that ends up actually being a test for 'in the establishment' – and therefore a vote would come out with what is in the best interests of the establishment, not the country as a whole. For serious long term issues like this I think it's right that everyone gets a chance to vote on it. And since the last referendum on anything vaguely EU related was before most people were 18 and therefore able to vote, it's a good thing to let us have that say. It's the job of politicians and the media to inform people so that they can vote with the full knowledge that they need to decide properly. If we vote for something stupid then that's our own decision and at least we will be living with our own mess, not someone else's. If you don't want the people to decide, and you don't want MPs to decide, who do you want to decide? A decision is being made whatever you do; 'no decision' is actually the same as 'stay in'. On the tangent, I think this increases the chances of Scotland voting Yes, because Scotland seems to be quite happy with the EU whereas England is quite possibly going to reject it. Maybe this is because Scotland receives a lot of EU money and doesn't get so much immigration pressure.
-
I agree that uninformed people voting on major issues is not ideal. However, if you don't do that then you have to have some sort of test for 'well-informed', and too often that ends up actually being a test for 'in the establishment' – and therefore a vote would come out with what is in the best interests of the establishment, not the country as a whole. For serious long term issues like this I think it's right that everyone gets a chance to vote on it. And since the last referendum on anything vaguely EU related was before most people were 18 and therefore able to vote, it's a good thing to let us have that say. It's the job of politicians and the media to inform people so that they can vote with the full knowledge that they need to decide properly. If we vote for something stupid then that's our own decision and at least we will be living with our own mess, not someone else's. If you don't want the people to decide, and you don't want MPs to decide, who do you want to decide? A decision is being made whatever you do; 'no decision' is actually the same as 'stay in'. On the tangent, I think this increases the chances of Scotland voting Yes, because Scotland seems to be quite happy with the EU whereas England is quite possibly going to reject it. Maybe this is because Scotland receives a lot of EU money and doesn't get so much immigration pressure.
After I posted this I read a rant from a Scot about how if this does go through he will be back to Scotland which should opt out of the UK to stop in the EU and forge closer ties with Scandinavia. The media doesn't inform, I'm not sure it ever has, it pushes an agenda. Pompey Boy pretty much nailed it when he said if we get the referendum then The Sun will decide what happens. If the Tories get another term and this goes to the country Murdoch will need to decide if he wants us to be in or out.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends. Shed Petition[^]
-
The reason you are smart is exactly because you know that there are too many unknown variables to be able to make a sensible decision. I don't believe that we will get a vote - I am on the cynical side of seeing it as the Tories as trying to buy votes. Personally I would like to see our fishing grounds reclaimed - that would be a good start as far as I am concerned irrespective of the whole Europe thing.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
I am on the cynical side of seeing it as the Tories as trying to buy votes.
That is the best way to describe the way that they have announced this referendum in my opinion.
Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provençale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam - Monty Python Spam Sketch
-
ChrisElston wrote:
The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective.
Yep, it's the domain of the armchair pundit and the disgruntled who need to vent their spleens. A lot of the anti-EU crowd talk about Switzerland and Norway being shining examples of being outside the EU, yet close enough to trade. Both of these countries still contribute a lot of money to the EU in order to trade within EFTA/EEA, but don't get a say in how things are run. A condition of the Swiss bilateral EU contract is adherence to various EU laws. So many laws in fact, that some 60% of all laws passed or amended in Switzerland come directly from the EU. As far as I am aware, Norway contributes the highest amount per capita to the EU. Both Switzerland and Norway are parties to Schengen, which means there is far more migration than occurs in the UK. About 25% of Switzerland's resident population is not Swiss, by contrast in the UK it's about 11-12%. For the UK it's not like leaving the EU would automatically lead to an extra supply of money that would otherwise end up in Europe, nor would it change any facet of British immigration. If we did vote to leave the EU in a referendum, we would have to negotiate terms to trade under EFTA/EEA and quite honestly, I can't see any of Cameron, Clegg or Miliband being able to get us a good deal in that respect. They're all equally useless. Whilst far from perfect, I think the UK leaving the EU would lead to the UK being worse off.
A message from Norway. This debate is deja vu for us, we have been there twice, in 72 and 94. Both time the result was no. It was rather traumatic both times, I say you Brits have a difficult time ahead leading up to the referendum. The key factor for us were the fishing rights. They are very vital to us, and we felt that EU could not accept that properly. Otherwise Jim, your observations are correct. We contribute a lot to EU, I don't think that it would be significantly less if we were full members. We are part of Schengen. And when it comes to adherence to new laws and regulations, we are almost best in class. The only issue is that our politicians have no say in making the rules, which is probably a good thing considering their quality. Happy referendum! :~
-
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum? One little fact, not made clear in the article, is that, yes, we do a huge amount of trade with the EU (AS A WHOLE), but a large proportion of that is done with the Rep.of Ireland, our only land border! They would continue to trade freely with us as we are their biggest market, and always have been. The poles are desperately concerned with keeping us in for we are the biggest market for eggs. One thing you should know about eggs. In the UK it is now illegal to battery farm chickens for eggs, but it is not illegal in Poland. So we buy all the battery farmed eggs from Poland and pack them into boxes in the UK so that they get the little lion mark. This indicates that they are British, and therefore not Battery Farmed. Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep shit. And as stated in the article, the Human Rights were invoked by the Council of Europe, but they are ENFORCED by the European Court. Membership of which is contingent on being in the EU. We could leave the EU, leaving the European Court, and do some really weird shit like 'Make and Enforce Our Own Laws'. The working time directive point only goes to show how Johnny Foreigner doesn't get it by showing the AVERAGE working week as being lower. So what? The point is that they are limiting the maximum. If I want to work more hours I am being barred from doing so. Is that freedom or control? They can spin it any way they like, but I will be voting for the Exit.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep sh*t.
Omletting you get away with that unsubstantiated statement.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
-
ChrisElston wrote:
The problem I have with referenda, is that like radio phone ins, the vast majority of those who take part are clueless idiots totally incapable of seeing any bigger or long term perspective.
Yep, it's the domain of the armchair pundit and the disgruntled who need to vent their spleens. A lot of the anti-EU crowd talk about Switzerland and Norway being shining examples of being outside the EU, yet close enough to trade. Both of these countries still contribute a lot of money to the EU in order to trade within EFTA/EEA, but don't get a say in how things are run. A condition of the Swiss bilateral EU contract is adherence to various EU laws. So many laws in fact, that some 60% of all laws passed or amended in Switzerland come directly from the EU. As far as I am aware, Norway contributes the highest amount per capita to the EU. Both Switzerland and Norway are parties to Schengen, which means there is far more migration than occurs in the UK. About 25% of Switzerland's resident population is not Swiss, by contrast in the UK it's about 11-12%. For the UK it's not like leaving the EU would automatically lead to an extra supply of money that would otherwise end up in Europe, nor would it change any facet of British immigration. If we did vote to leave the EU in a referendum, we would have to negotiate terms to trade under EFTA/EEA and quite honestly, I can't see any of Cameron, Clegg or Miliband being able to get us a good deal in that respect. They're all equally useless. Whilst far from perfect, I think the UK leaving the EU would lead to the UK being worse off.
jim lahey wrote:
About 25% of Switzerland's resident population is not Swiss, by contrast in the UK it's about 11-12%.
Yup, you can't move for tripping over them Swiss buggers in the UK. Sorry, couldn't resist.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
A message from Norway. This debate is deja vu for us, we have been there twice, in 72 and 94. Both time the result was no. It was rather traumatic both times, I say you Brits have a difficult time ahead leading up to the referendum. The key factor for us were the fishing rights. They are very vital to us, and we felt that EU could not accept that properly. Otherwise Jim, your observations are correct. We contribute a lot to EU, I don't think that it would be significantly less if we were full members. We are part of Schengen. And when it comes to adherence to new laws and regulations, we are almost best in class. The only issue is that our politicians have no say in making the rules, which is probably a good thing considering their quality. Happy referendum! :~
Haakon S. wrote:
The only issue is that our politicians have no say in making the rules, which is probably a good thing considering their quality.
Considering the quality of politicians all over, I'd say that it were preferable to keep them all out of it. Bring on the referendum.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
If things are so clear, why are they scared of the Referendum? One little fact, not made clear in the article, is that, yes, we do a huge amount of trade with the EU (AS A WHOLE), but a large proportion of that is done with the Rep.of Ireland, our only land border! They would continue to trade freely with us as we are their biggest market, and always have been. The poles are desperately concerned with keeping us in for we are the biggest market for eggs. One thing you should know about eggs. In the UK it is now illegal to battery farm chickens for eggs, but it is not illegal in Poland. So we buy all the battery farmed eggs from Poland and pack them into boxes in the UK so that they get the little lion mark. This indicates that they are British, and therefore not Battery Farmed. Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep shit. And as stated in the article, the Human Rights were invoked by the Council of Europe, but they are ENFORCED by the European Court. Membership of which is contingent on being in the EU. We could leave the EU, leaving the European Court, and do some really weird shit like 'Make and Enforce Our Own Laws'. The working time directive point only goes to show how Johnny Foreigner doesn't get it by showing the AVERAGE working week as being lower. So what? The point is that they are limiting the maximum. If I want to work more hours I am being barred from doing so. Is that freedom or control? They can spin it any way they like, but I will be voting for the Exit.
--------------------------------- I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep sh*t.
UK imported about 2.2 million eggs per month in 2012 Thats 26 million per annum lets say $.50 per egg that a value of $13 million And that's total imports - not just from Poland. The Uk accounts for 6.4% of Polands TOTAL export market. Let's assume they only export eggs. Sure, 6.4% would be a hit - but in deep shit? Their annual export value (estimate) for 2011 is just short of $200 billion Figures just don't add up - the loss of their entire UK egg exporting business would be bugger all
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
-
jim lahey wrote:
About 25% of Switzerland's resident population is not Swiss, by contrast in the UK it's about 11-12%.
Yup, you can't move for tripping over them Swiss buggers in the UK. Sorry, couldn't resist.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Dalek Dave wrote:
Should we stop buying the eggs from Poland, they would be in deep sh*t.
UK imported about 2.2 million eggs per month in 2012 Thats 26 million per annum lets say $.50 per egg that a value of $13 million And that's total imports - not just from Poland. The Uk accounts for 6.4% of Polands TOTAL export market. Let's assume they only export eggs. Sure, 6.4% would be a hit - but in deep shit? Their annual export value (estimate) for 2011 is just short of $200 billion Figures just don't add up - the loss of their entire UK egg exporting business would be bugger all
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Figures just don't add up
Of course they don't. Dave's an accountant after all.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier