This months WDM
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Nishant S wrote: I think he might be right regarding the Sun suicide thingie But Sun litigated because Microsoft broke their contract and changed the language. Had they let that happen, THAT would have been suicide. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: But Sun litigated because Microsoft broke their contract and changed the language. Had they let that happen, THAT would have been suicide. I have seen that said quite frequently, and it has always struck me as Sun propaganda to a large extent. I used J++ and Java both early on (before both became a litigation rather than a languages) and IMO what Microsoft did was extend java with specially formatted comments to facilitate interop with COM. I suppose that in the litteral legal interpretation of the contract this might not have been allowed. None of the 'standard' features were changed: you could still write 'pure' java code in j++. I have since then seen some other JAVA/COM interop approaches that do not 'violate' the 'purity' of the java language (they are nontheless not portable to systems without com - i.e. non-windows environments), so Microsoft could be faulted for not thinking its approach through enough. The loser in all this, though, is SUN, since JAVA is now likely to be a small player on the desktop, and MicroSoft was forced to develop .Net as a replacement for java (which they might well have stayed with without the lawsuit...). I fail to see where Sun has gained anything, but can certainly see where it lost opportunity. BTW I am no great fan of MicroSoft. The are vicious and overbearing as a competitor, and deserved to lose the anti-monoploy suit. Sun, however, is not much better, just smaller and less noticable... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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Colin Davies wrote: But isn't now SUN forcing MS to include the VM or something. Seriously, I'm finding all these court cases to confusing to follow. Sun is making Microsoft live up to the contract they signed, yes. I do believe it's getting silly, but if Sun did not have a case, they would not win. Colin Davies wrote: Also from what little I have seen C++ is actually too difficult for most programmers. No, it's a rich enough language that most programmers keep learning better ways to use it. It's not hard at all, in terms of the core language. Colin Davies wrote: After almost 4 1/2 yrs using C++ I'm still finding new features and abilities with it. This can be viewed two ways. I take the view that this is because it has a core feature set that is easy to use and lots of advanced features just waiting for you to discover. BTW I am not anti-C# nowadays, I like it a lot actually. I just think the right approach is to learn a lot of stuff, and make the right choice for each circumstance. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: I take the view that this is because it has a core feature set that is easy to use and lots of advanced features just waiting for you to discover. Well put! Jeremy Falcon Imputek
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Sounds like bullshit to me. It sure is. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: As for Sun; I hope they'll burn in hell. Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... I having to work with JAVA again after a long hiatus(hiatus-interuptus?); I do find the event model in java very refreshing and almost intuitive... a much better way to pass messages IMVHO. But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. - Yeats
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Sounds like bullshit to me. It sure is. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: As for Sun; I hope they'll burn in hell. Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... :omg: To the dark path it leads. Anger and hatred, consume you it will. -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta?
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Sounds like bullshit to me. It sure is. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: As for Sun; I hope they'll burn in hell. Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... You are going to learn everything. Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you.
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I read it but to be honest I had a hard time staying awake :) Most "language wars" bore me to sleep. I found his argument argument against C++ silly esp the whole lack strings thing. Christian Graus wrote: He also says that Sun has committed suicide by litigating Microsoft out of access to Java. Funny that he took this view, had SUN allowed MS to continue I think they may have found themselves in more trouble. Does anybody rember that HP tried almost the same thing with JAVA, altering it for embeded devices or something like that. But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. - Yeats
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Christian Graus wrote: Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... :omg: To the dark path it leads. Anger and hatred, consume you it will. -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta?
Sweet. Perfect timing. :-D Java is not all that bad though. It was way ahead of its time. I don't like using one language though. I find it...well restrictive like a pair of underwear that are too tight. I need to room to manover like the next man. :-D Quote from a clever bloke : "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Microsoft signed a contract, and broke it for no other reason than to hurt Java's cross platform abilities. Sun sued. So they should have. Java has a lively existence outside of the Windows world, and will continue to make Sun money regardless of what happens to them and Microsoft. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Microsoft signed a contract, and broke it for no other reason than to hurt Java's cross platform abilities. Sun sued. So they should have. Java has a lively existence outside of the Windows world, and will continue to make Sun money regardless of what happens to them and Microsoft That's useful information. Thanks CG :-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Christian Graus wrote: Actually, I'm learning Java/J2EE at the moment..... You are going to learn everything. Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you. Funny you mention that, my boss has been showing me some Haskell recently and I've decided to learn it soon. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
But isn't now SUN forcing MS to include the VM or something. Seriously, I'm finding all these court cases to confusing to follow. Also from what little I have seen C++ is actually too difficult for most programmers. After almost 4 1/2 yrs using C++ I'm still finding new features and abilities with it. This can be viewed two ways. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign' Rob Manderson wrote:
Colin Davies wrote: Seriously, I'm finding all these court cases to confusing to follow. Me too. I never understood why they file suites for opposite reasons from the previous case every year Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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In WDM this month is an article on why we should use C# over C++ '95% of the time'. It's not on the website, but if you don't have the mag, the gist of it is that C++ is too hard. It's anti C++ example is that C++ did not always have a string class, and it's pro C# example is properties, which it says are essential for developing GUI's, and the existence of the standards committee, which it says is the reason that C++ does not have properties. He also says that Sun has committed suicide by litigating Microsoft out of access to Java. I'm just astounded. Has anyone else read this drivel ? Does anyone agree with him ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003I haven't readthe drivel, but a) C++ is much harder than C# * b) If C++ came with a decent array and string class from the very beginning, my life would have been much better ;) I know it's controversial - but STL ain't the answer to this quesiton. c) Properties are fun! I don't think they are "missing" from C++, but they allow a much easier to reuse library design. I don't think this is limited to GUI, or especially that properties shine with GUI libs - except perhaps that they need lots of props. d) I don't know poop about Sun. *) I know that programming is much more than just the language: but if you have to handle three things: language, methodology, and API - you want to make sure that the tools fit your hand nicely.
So many people long for eternity that don't know what to do on a rainy sunday afternoon.
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
If you look for evil in me you will find it whether it's there or not. -
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you. Funny you mention that, my boss has been showing me some Haskell recently and I've decided to learn it soon. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Funny you mention that, my boss has been showing me some Haskell recently and I've decided to learn it soon. :omg:
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Microsoft signed a contract, and broke it for no other reason than to hurt Java's cross platform abilities. Sun sued. So they should have. Java has a lively existence outside of the Windows world, and will continue to make Sun money regardless of what happens to them and Microsoft. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Microsoft signed a contract, and broke it for no other reason than to hurt Java's cross platform abilities Christian, I disagree with you on this one. MS had a open license to extend the JVM and language so MS developed whe Windows Foundation Classes to give Java developers access to core Win32 functionality. This was just an extension and I remember the IDE giving you a warning when you first added the WFC support into your project. Now the MS JVM has some compatability problems but this is because it's a 1.0 version of the JDK and MS either didn't want or couldn't get a new license from Sun to improve it. Now I'm not saying that MS was altruistic and a great benefactor in developing the MS JVM or the WFC but Sun is not without blame in all of this either. Now I know you hate MS almost as much as you hate GWB but you really should try to be more open minded and not see conspiracy around every corner. The sky is not falling chicken little.
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I haven't readthe drivel, but a) C++ is much harder than C# * b) If C++ came with a decent array and string class from the very beginning, my life would have been much better ;) I know it's controversial - but STL ain't the answer to this quesiton. c) Properties are fun! I don't think they are "missing" from C++, but they allow a much easier to reuse library design. I don't think this is limited to GUI, or especially that properties shine with GUI libs - except perhaps that they need lots of props. d) I don't know poop about Sun. *) I know that programming is much more than just the language: but if you have to handle three things: language, methodology, and API - you want to make sure that the tools fit your hand nicely.
So many people long for eternity that don't know what to do on a rainy sunday afternoon.
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
If you look for evil in me you will find it whether it's there or not.peterchen wrote: C++ is much harder than C# I disagree. It's got more features, that does not mean you need to use them. peterchen wrote: If C++ came with a decent array and string class from the very beginning, my life would have been much better I know it's controversial - but STL ain't the answer to this quesiton. I agree, partially. STL *does* answer this question, and not being there in the beginning is irrelevant to new projects. peterchen wrote: Properties are fun! No argument here. But I don't see the link to GUI development, much less how they are more than just 'fun'. They are syntactic sugar, not a showstopper. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Christian Graus wrote: Microsoft signed a contract, and broke it for no other reason than to hurt Java's cross platform abilities Christian, I disagree with you on this one. MS had a open license to extend the JVM and language so MS developed whe Windows Foundation Classes to give Java developers access to core Win32 functionality. This was just an extension and I remember the IDE giving you a warning when you first added the WFC support into your project. Now the MS JVM has some compatability problems but this is because it's a 1.0 version of the JDK and MS either didn't want or couldn't get a new license from Sun to improve it. Now I'm not saying that MS was altruistic and a great benefactor in developing the MS JVM or the WFC but Sun is not without blame in all of this either. Now I know you hate MS almost as much as you hate GWB but you really should try to be more open minded and not see conspiracy around every corner. The sky is not falling chicken little.
Terry Denham wrote: Now I know you hate MS almost as much as you hate GWB You're correct here. But I suspect you have no idea of the degree to which I hate either of them. Terry Denham wrote: but Sun is not without blame in all of this either. No argument, Scott McNealy is clearly over passionate in his hate for MS, and that at least partially because Bill is richer than he is. Terry Denham wrote: you really should try to be more open minded The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Colin Davies wrote: Seriously, I'm finding all these court cases to confusing to follow. Me too. I never understood why they file suites for opposite reasons from the previous case every year Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
In principle I believe it's that Microsoft signed a contract regarding Java, in which they would not change the language, and they would include it with Windows. But I agree that it's all a little silly now. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you. Funny you mention that, my boss has been showing me some Haskell recently and I've decided to learn it soon. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Always a good way to learn "International Obfuscated Haskell Code Contest" http://iohc.mgoetze.net/[^] But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams. - Yeats
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Terry Denham wrote: Now I know you hate MS almost as much as you hate GWB You're correct here. But I suspect you have no idea of the degree to which I hate either of them. Terry Denham wrote: but Sun is not without blame in all of this either. No argument, Scott McNealy is clearly over passionate in his hate for MS, and that at least partially because Bill is richer than he is. Terry Denham wrote: you really should try to be more open minded The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself Hmm, maybe its because your so outspoken in your opinions. I don't know you but reading your comments and articles I can tell your an intelligent guy and you probably look into subjects to form your opinions and not just arrive at them off-the-cuff, but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable.
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Christian Graus wrote: The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself Hmm, maybe its because your so outspoken in your opinions. I don't know you but reading your comments and articles I can tell your an intelligent guy and you probably look into subjects to form your opinions and not just arrive at them off-the-cuff, but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable.
Terry Denham wrote: but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable. LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. But my slow but steady conversion to C# would hopfully indicate that I can keep an open mind, and change my position, although whatever my position is, I'm likely to fight hard for it :) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Christian Graus wrote: But Sun litigated because Microsoft broke their contract and changed the language. Had they let that happen, THAT would have been suicide. I have seen that said quite frequently, and it has always struck me as Sun propaganda to a large extent. I used J++ and Java both early on (before both became a litigation rather than a languages) and IMO what Microsoft did was extend java with specially formatted comments to facilitate interop with COM. I suppose that in the litteral legal interpretation of the contract this might not have been allowed. None of the 'standard' features were changed: you could still write 'pure' java code in j++. I have since then seen some other JAVA/COM interop approaches that do not 'violate' the 'purity' of the java language (they are nontheless not portable to systems without com - i.e. non-windows environments), so Microsoft could be faulted for not thinking its approach through enough. The loser in all this, though, is SUN, since JAVA is now likely to be a small player on the desktop, and MicroSoft was forced to develop .Net as a replacement for java (which they might well have stayed with without the lawsuit...). I fail to see where Sun has gained anything, but can certainly see where it lost opportunity. BTW I am no great fan of MicroSoft. The are vicious and overbearing as a competitor, and deserved to lose the anti-monoploy suit. Sun, however, is not much better, just smaller and less noticable... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
The version of Java that Microsoft put out was so compatible that you could compile your Java class files and run it on a Solaris box. And it would run flawlessly. The only part that would not work was any part that used the com.ms.whatever packages, and if a developer is too stupid to realize that com.ms is a Microsoft-specific package, then he should be flogged!