This months WDM
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Terry Denham wrote: Now I know you hate MS almost as much as you hate GWB You're correct here. But I suspect you have no idea of the degree to which I hate either of them. Terry Denham wrote: but Sun is not without blame in all of this either. No argument, Scott McNealy is clearly over passionate in his hate for MS, and that at least partially because Bill is richer than he is. Terry Denham wrote: you really should try to be more open minded The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself Hmm, maybe its because your so outspoken in your opinions. I don't know you but reading your comments and articles I can tell your an intelligent guy and you probably look into subjects to form your opinions and not just arrive at them off-the-cuff, but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable.
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Christian Graus wrote: The funny thing is that I am told that most often by closed minded people because I refuse to fit any stereotype and work hard to think for myself Hmm, maybe its because your so outspoken in your opinions. I don't know you but reading your comments and articles I can tell your an intelligent guy and you probably look into subjects to form your opinions and not just arrive at them off-the-cuff, but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable.
Terry Denham wrote: but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable. LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. But my slow but steady conversion to C# would hopfully indicate that I can keep an open mind, and change my position, although whatever my position is, I'm likely to fight hard for it :) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Christian Graus wrote: But Sun litigated because Microsoft broke their contract and changed the language. Had they let that happen, THAT would have been suicide. I have seen that said quite frequently, and it has always struck me as Sun propaganda to a large extent. I used J++ and Java both early on (before both became a litigation rather than a languages) and IMO what Microsoft did was extend java with specially formatted comments to facilitate interop with COM. I suppose that in the litteral legal interpretation of the contract this might not have been allowed. None of the 'standard' features were changed: you could still write 'pure' java code in j++. I have since then seen some other JAVA/COM interop approaches that do not 'violate' the 'purity' of the java language (they are nontheless not portable to systems without com - i.e. non-windows environments), so Microsoft could be faulted for not thinking its approach through enough. The loser in all this, though, is SUN, since JAVA is now likely to be a small player on the desktop, and MicroSoft was forced to develop .Net as a replacement for java (which they might well have stayed with without the lawsuit...). I fail to see where Sun has gained anything, but can certainly see where it lost opportunity. BTW I am no great fan of MicroSoft. The are vicious and overbearing as a competitor, and deserved to lose the anti-monoploy suit. Sun, however, is not much better, just smaller and less noticable... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
The version of Java that Microsoft put out was so compatible that you could compile your Java class files and run it on a Solaris box. And it would run flawlessly. The only part that would not work was any part that used the com.ms.whatever packages, and if a developer is too stupid to realize that com.ms is a Microsoft-specific package, then he should be flogged!
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Let me know when you start learning Haskell - I may join you. Funny you mention that, my boss has been showing me some Haskell recently and I've decided to learn it soon. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Haskell is pretty darn fun. Although, I've never done anything serious with it. Perfect language for teaching type theory. :) -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta?
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peterchen wrote: C++ is much harder than C# I disagree. It's got more features, that does not mean you need to use them. peterchen wrote: If C++ came with a decent array and string class from the very beginning, my life would have been much better I know it's controversial - but STL ain't the answer to this quesiton. I agree, partially. STL *does* answer this question, and not being there in the beginning is irrelevant to new projects. peterchen wrote: Properties are fun! No argument here. But I don't see the link to GUI development, much less how they are more than just 'fun'. They are syntactic sugar, not a showstopper. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: No argument here. But I don't see the link to GUI development, much less how they are more than just 'fun'. They are syntactic sugar, not a showstopper. I for one would like to see that syntactic sugar implemented. But only if you can treat them as first class citizens - i.e. being able to take the adress of them (and consequently reference them). That could indeed be interesting! -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta?
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Christian Graus wrote: No argument here. But I don't see the link to GUI development, much less how they are more than just 'fun'. They are syntactic sugar, not a showstopper. I for one would like to see that syntactic sugar implemented. But only if you can treat them as first class citizens - i.e. being able to take the adress of them (and consequently reference them). That could indeed be interesting! -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: i.e. being able to take the adress of them (and consequently reference them). But how would that work ? If I have a string property, but it really stores and retrieves a value from the database, what would the address point to ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
peterchen wrote: C++ is much harder than C# I disagree. It's got more features, that does not mean you need to use them. peterchen wrote: If C++ came with a decent array and string class from the very beginning, my life would have been much better I know it's controversial - but STL ain't the answer to this quesiton. I agree, partially. STL *does* answer this question, and not being there in the beginning is irrelevant to new projects. peterchen wrote: Properties are fun! No argument here. But I don't see the link to GUI development, much less how they are more than just 'fun'. They are syntactic sugar, not a showstopper. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003well, I'm fine with most of these points - as long as I'm developing on my own. However, if you go into a team, and have to work with different libraries, things change: one likes this, one likes that. Lib A uses this feature, Lib B uses that. For an "industrial strength" project you need to be fluid in most features. Properties can be more than syntactic sugar: used properly, they gurantee and enforce a certain style (e.g. setting .Background to Red does redraw immediately). So, while being syntactic sugar, they make liefe easier. STL: to use it as simple vector-and-string it's very crude syntactically, and ignores it's real power (which needs much deeper understanding of both templates, and the STL architecture. But well, that's my pet peeve with it: For most jobs it's to perfect a tool...
So many people long for eternity that don't know what to do on a rainy sunday afternoon.
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
If you look for evil in me you will find it whether it's there or not. -
well, I'm fine with most of these points - as long as I'm developing on my own. However, if you go into a team, and have to work with different libraries, things change: one likes this, one likes that. Lib A uses this feature, Lib B uses that. For an "industrial strength" project you need to be fluid in most features. Properties can be more than syntactic sugar: used properly, they gurantee and enforce a certain style (e.g. setting .Background to Red does redraw immediately). So, while being syntactic sugar, they make liefe easier. STL: to use it as simple vector-and-string it's very crude syntactically, and ignores it's real power (which needs much deeper understanding of both templates, and the STL architecture. But well, that's my pet peeve with it: For most jobs it's to perfect a tool...
So many people long for eternity that don't know what to do on a rainy sunday afternoon.
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
If you look for evil in me you will find it whether it's there or not.peterchen wrote: Properties can be more than syntactic sugar: used properly, they gurantee and enforce a certain style (e.g. setting .Background to Red does redraw immediately). So, while being syntactic sugar, they make liefe easier. How does this differ to setting.SetBackground( RGB(255, 0, 0)) also enforcing a redraw ? It's the same thing, a set method instead of a raw variable. peterchen wrote: to use it as simple vector-and-string it's very crude syntactically, and ignores it's real power True, just as it's possible to use C++ and ignore other powerful features. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
peterchen wrote: Properties can be more than syntactic sugar: used properly, they gurantee and enforce a certain style (e.g. setting .Background to Red does redraw immediately). So, while being syntactic sugar, they make liefe easier. How does this differ to setting.SetBackground( RGB(255, 0, 0)) also enforcing a redraw ? It's the same thing, a set method instead of a raw variable. peterchen wrote: to use it as simple vector-and-string it's very crude syntactically, and ignores it's real power True, just as it's possible to use C++ and ignore other powerful features. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: How does this differ to setting.SetBackground( RGB(255, 0, 0)) you obviously never worked with a library that required you to call ResetImage, or ReinitializeImage, or both, after such a grave change ;) I agree, the same thing can be achieved without properties. And properties can be abused as well. ok ok... they are sugar - but I like candy! :cool: off to bed now... good nite.
So many people long for eternity that don't know what to do on a rainy sunday afternoon.
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]
If you look for evil in me you will find it whether it's there or not. -
Terry Denham wrote: but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable. LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. But my slow but steady conversion to C# would hopfully indicate that I can keep an open mind, and change my position, although whatever my position is, I'm likely to fight hard for it :) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: slow but steady conversion to C# I just went out and looked at your article count. Man have you been busy writing stuff in C#. I can't wait to get off this year two year long project and work with some new stuff. :cool:
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Terry Denham wrote: but it sounds like once your make up your mind, you are intractable. LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. But my slow but steady conversion to C# would hopfully indicate that I can keep an open mind, and change my position, although whatever my position is, I'm likely to fight hard for it :) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. It must be getting harder and harder to hide this as you get older. I suggest growing a beard. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: slow but steady conversion to C# I just went out and looked at your article count. Man have you been busy writing stuff in C#. I can't wait to get off this year two year long project and work with some new stuff. :cool:
Terry Denham wrote: Man have you been busy writing stuff in C#. *grin* The image processing articles were my first C# code. I admit to being selfish, my magazine and CP articles are all written to give me projects to help me learn stuff. Now that I use C# at work, I am using J2EE at home. I do miss C++, but for the time being my skill level is high enough that I'm better off building skills elsewhere. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Christian Graus wrote: LOL - I'll admit to being pig headed, that's for sure. It must be getting harder and harder to hide this as you get older. I suggest growing a beard. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Hi Michael. Have I told you to get stuffed lately ? :) So how's life in Sydney ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: i.e. being able to take the adress of them (and consequently reference them). But how would that work ? If I have a string property, but it really stores and retrieves a value from the database, what would the address point to ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003As I was writing an example to show you what I meant, I discovered my error. :) Such pointers and references could never be true first class citizens of the language. Sure, this would work:
std::string* p = &obj.Prop;
*p = "This string will invoke obj.Prop.set()";But the pointer type itself would not be compatible with a "real"
std::string*. One would not be able to access public data members for instance, since the pointer doesn't really point to a memory location. I guess it could be possible by adding a "property reference" construct, but that would just make the language look more like VB. Ok then, I stand corrected. I won't need properties in C++. :) -- Chatai. Yana ra Yakana ro futisha ta? -
Hi Michael. Have I told you to get stuffed lately ? :) So how's life in Sydney ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: Hi Michael. Have I told you to get stuffed lately ? :) NO, and oh how I have missed it. :-D Christian Graus wrote: So how's life in Sydney ? Wouldn't know. I'm in Sydney but not having a life. Income is not covering expenses (car lease, board, bills, MC) and stress is just a tad over extreme at the moment. Extra work with consultancy is slow after the Christmas break, TAFE still hasn't got back to me about lecturing at night and my wife is still trying to get a job after 7 or 8 years without. How's sunny Tasmania? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Hi Michael. Have I told you to get stuffed lately ? :) NO, and oh how I have missed it. :-D Christian Graus wrote: So how's life in Sydney ? Wouldn't know. I'm in Sydney but not having a life. Income is not covering expenses (car lease, board, bills, MC) and stress is just a tad over extreme at the moment. Extra work with consultancy is slow after the Christmas break, TAFE still hasn't got back to me about lecturing at night and my wife is still trying to get a job after 7 or 8 years without. How's sunny Tasmania? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: NO, and oh how I have missed it Well, get ready..... Michael Martin wrote: TAFE still hasn't got back to me about lecturing at night What are you going to lecture on ? I've often contemplated running an adult ed course, is that the sort of thing you mean ? Michael Martin wrote: my wife is still trying to get a job after 7 or 8 years without. That can be tough. Donna has managed it, she's actually full time now, and her trouble is more people want her than there are hours in the day. Michael Martin wrote: How's sunny Tasmania? Really busy. But I got my new guitar today, so life is looking good. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
In WDM this month is an article on why we should use C# over C++ '95% of the time'. It's not on the website, but if you don't have the mag, the gist of it is that C++ is too hard. It's anti C++ example is that C++ did not always have a string class, and it's pro C# example is properties, which it says are essential for developing GUI's, and the existence of the standards committee, which it says is the reason that C++ does not have properties. He also says that Sun has committed suicide by litigating Microsoft out of access to Java. I'm just astounded. Has anyone else read this drivel ? Does anyone agree with him ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: In WDM this month is an article on why we should use C# over C++ '95% of the time'. I think you meant this article of "Visual Studio Magazine".. http://www.fawcette.com/vsm/2002_12/online/csharp_bwagner_12_16_02/default.asp[^] Christian Graus wrote: which it says is the reason that C++ does not have properties That's not quite true. Microsoft C++ compiler supports properties. Also, most of the advantages we get from C# have nothing to do with the language itself, but it is the .NET framework that lets us to write code productively.
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Christian Graus wrote: In WDM this month is an article on why we should use C# over C++ '95% of the time'. I think you meant this article of "Visual Studio Magazine".. http://www.fawcette.com/vsm/2002_12/online/csharp_bwagner_12_16_02/default.asp[^] Christian Graus wrote: which it says is the reason that C++ does not have properties That's not quite true. Microsoft C++ compiler supports properties. Also, most of the advantages we get from C# have nothing to do with the language itself, but it is the .NET framework that lets us to write code productively.
Fazlul Kabir wrote: I think you meant this article of "Visual Studio Magazine".. You think that do you ? Well, I'm afraid you're about as wrong as anyone can be, the flat earth society included. Fazlul Kabir wrote: That's not quite true. Microsoft C++ compiler supports properties. How ? Do you mean properties in COM components ? Fazlul Kabir wrote: Also, most of the advantages we get from C# have nothing to do with the language itself, but it is the .NET framework that lets us to write code productively. That's another question entirely. There is no doubt that while the .NET framework misses some stuff that C++ has in it's libraries, the reverse is also true. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003 -
Michael Martin wrote: NO, and oh how I have missed it Well, get ready..... Michael Martin wrote: TAFE still hasn't got back to me about lecturing at night What are you going to lecture on ? I've often contemplated running an adult ed course, is that the sort of thing you mean ? Michael Martin wrote: my wife is still trying to get a job after 7 or 8 years without. That can be tough. Donna has managed it, she's actually full time now, and her trouble is more people want her than there are hours in the day. Michael Martin wrote: How's sunny Tasmania? Really busy. But I got my new guitar today, so life is looking good. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003Christian Graus wrote: What are you going to lecture on ? I've often contemplated running an adult ed course, is that the sort of thing you mean ? TAFE here in Richmond has an IT department that runs Certificate and Diploma level courses. I would be lecturing some of them where my real world experience covers what is needed. It would look good on the resume, keep me closer to technology than my current job as well as possibly getting my enthusiasm for technoly going again. Also it pays $48.00 an hour so I wouldn't mind that either. Christian Graus wrote: That can be tough. Donna has managed it, she's actually full time now, and her trouble is more people want her than there are hours in the day. My wife is looking at a job that is 20 hours a week. This would fit in with my son's school and my daughters pre-school hours. The few days a week Bridget doesn't go to pre-school we have family and friends who could look after her. If she gets the job shes looking at we will be about $180 a week better off after tax and government benefits are removed. Not much but every little bit counts. Christian Graus wrote: Really busy. But I got my new guitar today, so life is looking good. I need to find something completely different to do but can't find anything at the moment. Couldn't do anything at home with everyone there to fuck it up. I would really love to get back to the gym, but need to have the money to do it. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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In WDM this month is an article on why we should use C# over C++ '95% of the time'. It's not on the website, but if you don't have the mag, the gist of it is that C++ is too hard. It's anti C++ example is that C++ did not always have a string class, and it's pro C# example is properties, which it says are essential for developing GUI's, and the existence of the standards committee, which it says is the reason that C++ does not have properties. He also says that Sun has committed suicide by litigating Microsoft out of access to Java. I'm just astounded. Has anyone else read this drivel ? Does anyone agree with him ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003The statements about the future of C++ are confusing at best. On one hand we have Nick Hodapp, Microsoft's C++ Product Manager, busting his ass to try and ensure C++ is on everyone's radar screen under the ambush of .NET marketing, and on the other we have the latest issue of MSDN writing off the massive C++ changes with a few words about WinForms support and ISO compliance. As far as I'm concerned VS.NET 2003 is all about C++, and from what I'm hearing the changes we'll get in VS.NET 2003 are only the beginning - but no one seems to want to listen. C# is certainly a lovely language to work with - far better than it's ugly brother VB.NET - but to say that C# should be used 95% of the time is a little misleading. For writing ASP.NET pages - sure - but for native or mixed mode coding C# isn't even an option. BTW - Check out this: The latest VS.NET T-shirt. cheers, Chris Maunder
