I think Ubuntu is still not ready for the desktop ( and won't be any soon .... )
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
I tend to agree . Ubuntu is not suitable for my mother . Also the number of devs I see using macs tends to make me assume that there is a reason they dont use UBUNTU as their OS. I am using it right now , and I find it as reliable as windows 95 . Now I daresay that there is a config I can find that will help , and as a technical guy I enjoy that challenge , but mass market ? Not yet . BUT its getting there . And for server OS I think Linux is perfect , no worrying about licensing issues , easy command line installs , superb online community help with honest opinion . Regards Torrance
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work.
I agree 100%. While for a lot of things I can simply use some app, any of the nice personalization things that I am used to in Windows simply isn't there. I can't imagine trying to create a workable dev environment in it - even switch between applications with alt-tab is a klunky "WTF is it trying to do" experience. And come on, having to open a terminal window and "sudo" this, "sudo" that, is elephanting archaic. Marc
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Quote:
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy.
Yes. Exactly. Everyone outside developer community is dumb and evil. I have had this experience whenever i ship a code.
Quote:
Force yourself to use it for a year,
For a year? That's unacceptable for average user. BTW, i had heard of DSL. I will give it a try. Thanks for suggestion.
Behzad
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Are you sure this was an Ubuntu problem, rather than because of ns-3? I haven't worked on Linux for a while, but I always found it one of the easiest systems to install and configure, on a range of hardware.
Use the best guess
Yes. The default installation CD lacks some really useful and popular libraries.
Behzad
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Yes. The default installation CD lacks some really useful and popular libraries.
Behzad
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Your issues with Linux seem to stem from the fact that you believe the world revolves around what you want and need rather than what the average user might need. They're not going to pre-install EVERY interpreter known to man just because YOU might use it. Flash doesn't come installed because once again, it's a proprietary tool, and they haven't quite been playing nice with Linux for a bit... but one could argue Adobe has been upsetting more people than playing nice with them.
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Uhm.... no. I really have enough of Mickeysoft :)
Sent from my BatComputer via HAL 9000 and M5
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My XP box is fubared on this proble. I havent yet mustered the courage to do a manual registry rip out and reinstall.... But one day I might have to. Oh pain, why are you called Microsoft?
============================== Nothing to say.
Now, don't spoil the fun here. Create another thread to bash MS, you fat_B@S****. :laugh:
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Then change the look at feel. You can, for example, try Cairo-Dock or Cinnamon. You can even try the Gnome Fallback version. But if you want it to have a Microsofty-like Windows appearance, you can even try "Kubuntu"
Cinnamon is by far my favorite
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"Use Wine" is a cop-out and shows that there really are missing planks in Linux. You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
BobJanova wrote:
You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
If you insist on comparing them as equals, yes - but they're definitely not. Notepad++ isn't part of the OS, and if he wants to run a foreign app, well that's possible. The most common answer to "xxx is not here" is write it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Then change the look at feel. You can, for example, try Cairo-Dock or Cinnamon. You can even try the Gnome Fallback version. But if you want it to have a Microsofty-like Windows appearance, you can even try "Kubuntu"
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Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
At this point, you deserve a "Clippy" to appear to help you. "Hi, it looks like you're trying to type a letter." You HAVE heard about Wine?
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
You're comparing it to an environment that has "the user is dumb and evil" as a philosophy. Force yourself to use it for a year, and come back. Aw, and do yourself a favor, install DSL instead of Ubuntu. You don't need the bloat, it's only there to make Windows-users more comfortable.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Also, the UI of Ubuntu is also not to my taste. Those windows, especially the caption and border, always make me feel thick and heavy. Am I the only one who thinks so?
Oh dear. It's not the same. Me want Mickey Soft. But fwee!
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"Use Wine" is a cop-out and shows that there really are missing planks in Linux. You wouldn't expect a Windows user to accept 'just start a Linux VM' when they ask where some piece of software is.
Alright. Use gedit. It's built in, is tabbable, and does practically everything notepad++ does. Also it doesn't screw up line endings, so when you edit scripts, they'll *still* work.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear.
1 - I needed to install python
2 - I needed to install TCL.
3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 )
4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it.
5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog!And you get those direct with windows? Do you mean an OEM pre-installed bloatware PC you just plug in and go? Even those I've never seen with such a developer-specific set of all interpreters possible arrangement.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance!
And this is a "standard" Windows program available direct from the install DVD? Or did you inadvertently add the ++ to the end? If you don't like sublime, then try Geany - it's built using the same Scintilla libraries as Notepad++ is. Some even say it's better than N++.
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
9 - Foxit Reader?
Uhmmm ... now let me see here ... http://www.foxitsoftware.com/downloads/ Yep, as I thought, Foxit has a "Desktop Linux" version in that dropdown!
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I tend to agree . Ubuntu is not suitable for my mother . Also the number of devs I see using macs tends to make me assume that there is a reason they dont use UBUNTU as their OS. I am using it right now , and I find it as reliable as windows 95 . Now I daresay that there is a config I can find that will help , and as a technical guy I enjoy that challenge , but mass market ? Not yet . BUT its getting there . And for server OS I think Linux is perfect , no worrying about licensing issues , easy command line installs , superb online community help with honest opinion . Regards Torrance
My mum is 87. She uses Ubuntu 12.04. She finds the interface far easier to use than microcrap, and she doesn't miss the useless, confusing popups every time she tries to do things, or waiting for all the s**t to finish hijacking the network connection when she switches on, or the aggressive marketing banners of 'free' software, or the rubbish about not switching off because of updates when she wants to finish and go and make a cup of tea, or the s**t you have to pay for to protect the system from drive-by's and viruses... I mean really? You pay good money for this experience?
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The Ubuntu install process is a breeze. Yes you have to know what the dependencies are, but it isnt hard to find out. But at least it works properly, install AND uninstall. You are right to a certain extent, it is an engineers system, but when you have a problem with windows the average user is totally lost, so there isnt much difference there. If you are suggesting some kind of automated dependency tracker is implemented in Ubuntu I would agree with you, it would make it even better. So why not write one yourself? :)
============================== Nothing to say.
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why? Here is the story : Today for setting up ns-3,i installed Ubuntu(through wubi) on my dev box ( Win 7 ) and spent all day inside it. Soon after logging, the problems, started to appear. 1 - I needed to install python 2 - I needed to install TCL. 3 - I needed to install g++ ( for compiling ns-3 ) 4- JAVA? No problem! In Win7 also you need to install it. 5- Adobe flash? I just installed it but after opening some tabs, Firefox started to freeze and in a rare time in Linux history ( :laugh: ) desktop vanished and after some HDD LED work, it logged out and showed me the login dialog! 6 - I needed a notepad++ Linux equivalent. No chance! 7- Process Explorer Equivalent? No chance! ( i found one but it wanted to download 61MB of software !!!! ) 8 - Gtalk? Yahoo Messenger? Still no chance! OK. I used Empathy, but it did not authenticated me to my yahoo account! :sigh: 9 - Foxit Reader? OK! The only tabbed applications in Linux are web browsers and Terminal window! So, no tabbed pdf viewer you can see there. 10 - I have another monitor attached to my laptop. I needed to assign the dashboard to my own preferred desktop. No Chance! :sigh: And the list goes on .... You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong! why? Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work. Maybe it works for some basic tasks like web surfing or word/image processing, but behind that, you are facing the terrible fact: you have to setup what ever you want by your hand and the most important is learning some scripting language ( python, bash, TCL, etc.). Ubuntu has tried to fix this problem with its own 'Ubuntu Software Center' and it is an awesome effort, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The user should not search the web for dependencies or libraries needed for certain application to get work. After all, i think the whole Linux culture should be changed because people out there, are not developer.
Behzad
Behzad Sedighzadeh wrote:
You know, i think the whole philosophy behind current Linux development is wrong!
why?
Because it has been prepared from a developer's perspective not an ordinary user who just wants to set up his environment and start to work.Here I'm with you half-way. Most Linuxes are not designed (or even intended) for the average user. But Ubuntu is definately one of those whose philosophy leans more to the: "User is dumb and should be lead by the hand" idea than the CLI-centric distros. In my experience Ubuntu & Fedora is nearly equal to Windows' "ease of use" for a lay-user. But "when things go wrong" it's actually surpassing the "registry hacks you need to invoke with a cauldron boiling some efluence" to try and "fix" windows without an entire system reformat. And actually if you download some program to install on Windows, you have either a 5GB file to get or you need to download DotNet 4.5 (or WTF else). So 61MB scares you does it? For libraries which would probably be used by some of the other progs you're installing? Really? You must LOVE updating/upgrading your DotNet packages then!