Gaah - Can't I just do the stinking job?
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
Member 8824288 wrote:
I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else.
:thumbsup: /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
Member 8824288 wrote:
I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else.
Good for you. :thumbsup:
VS2010/Atmel Studio 6.1 ToDo Manager Extension Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
Damn! Damn Straight! Thank you!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
In general I agree with what you are saying. As a person who has physical limitations one thing that stands out in my experience is that people perceive me differently whether they are aware of it or not. Usually not in a flattering way It’s just how people are wired. I have always needed to excel at what I do to overcome that perception. Rather than getting angry about it, I’ve learned to accept it as a fact of life that I have some control over but not very much, but some. Once I get past those perceptions with the people I work with I usually end up being the go to person even on matters that I am not expert in because I learn quick and know how to find information. Now you need to talk to your husband about the kid duty, in my family, I am the one who gets to deal with sick kid and, kid event issues because I simply have more vacation and personal days off.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Thanks for the advice but at this point the kid is 22 LOL. Raising a gifted, learning-disabled kid meant both of us couldn't be on the hot projects. Mostly because getting him through school was a job unto itself. I'm happy with the choices I made and the choices we made as a couple. We've had a great marriage for 25 years and still going strong. It sounds like you've found peace with what life has handed you as well. Good for you.
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LOL
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Amen. My daughter just sent me a video she'd been shown at school, encouraging her to view her life in these sort of terms, that is, 'as a woman, how do you overcome the way the world works against you'. We just hired a new developer. We hired a female. Why ? Because she was the best applicant. The gender of applicants was not something that registered as being remotely a factor in anything. If you want to succeed, be good at what you do. That's all there is. It doesn't matter what your gender, or orientation or hobbies, or anything else unrelated to job performance, are. Do the job well, and you'll succeed. What concerns me is that my daughter is being encouraged to make excuses and expect to fail, instead of doing her best to be her best, whatever that may be.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I wish you and your daughter luck. Hopefully common sense will win out over the marketing
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
The reality is that women often still receive lower pay than men in the same job. Furthermore, there is a "consciousness" (if you want to call it that) that women in the workforce are still "discriminated" against, whether overtly or not, and that men and society as a whole need to be educated to treat women equally. Otherwise, why, for example, would the Albany Chamber of Commerce have a Recongizing Women of Excellence[^] program? Unfortunately, there are those that then realize this is a marketing opportunity, or rather, a money-making opportunity, to feed off of the supposed insecurities and fears of women rather than doing something meaningful to eliminate the discrimination. Hence the flurry of "how to succeed as a woman" gimmicks. Then again, the CoC does not have a "Recognizing Men of Excellence" program, nor do I get "how to succeed as a man" gimmicky emails (well, I get other "how to succeed as a man" emails, but those go to spam, hahaha.) So, while I appreciate your rant, there is truth to the discrimination, and rather than being left alone to do your job, may I humbly suggest that you instead become vocal about doing your job (like you did here) and help bring equality to the scene. And I would also submit that, frankly, the reason the wife stays home with the sick kids is "simply" because women do tend to be more nurturing than men. It's an archetype thing, but the truth of archetypes is also important to recognize and honor. Having raised my son from 9 years old to now 22 as a single parent, I can well appreciate the loving touch that a woman provides, having to have learned how to be more nurturing myself raising my son. Thoughts? Marc
Testers Wanted!
Latest Article: User Authentication on Ruby on Rails - the definitive how to
My Blog -
Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
:thumbsup: I am sick of the media in general continuing to report in terms of sex, Like 'first woman professor of ...' etc. Surely sex isn't relevant unless, well, it's relevant? I also disagree with them mentioning race in this context, but know some racial minority members (politically correct enough?) see it as being a positive role model. Be interested in your view, as a non-male.
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
Member 8824288 wrote:
listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc.
A CodeProject MVP messaged you (in these forums) for an year? If so, why? :~
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com The life of a Malayalee American - by Nish
An article I recently wrote for an event souvenir
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Member 8824288 wrote:
listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc.
A CodeProject MVP messaged you (in these forums) for an year? If so, why? :~
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com The life of a Malayalee American - by Nish
An article I recently wrote for an event souvenir
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to someone who had been in another profession a year previously being made an MVP by another program, not a CodeProject MVP. To me MVP is someone who has leadership and experience to offer to people in the profession. I don't see how someone with a year's programming experience can offer that.
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Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to someone who had been in another profession a year previously being made an MVP by another program, not a CodeProject MVP. To me MVP is someone who has leadership and experience to offer to people in the profession. I don't see how someone with a year's programming experience can offer that.
Ah, thanks for clarifying.
Regards, Nish
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com The life of a Malayalee American - by Nish
An article I recently wrote for an event souvenir
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Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
Member 8824288 wrote:
I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat.
[OT] How the hell do things like this happen? What makes people go from programming real-time systems to web development?
more from me | GALex: C++ Library for Advanced Genetic Algorithms
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The reality is that women often still receive lower pay than men in the same job. Furthermore, there is a "consciousness" (if you want to call it that) that women in the workforce are still "discriminated" against, whether overtly or not, and that men and society as a whole need to be educated to treat women equally. Otherwise, why, for example, would the Albany Chamber of Commerce have a Recongizing Women of Excellence[^] program? Unfortunately, there are those that then realize this is a marketing opportunity, or rather, a money-making opportunity, to feed off of the supposed insecurities and fears of women rather than doing something meaningful to eliminate the discrimination. Hence the flurry of "how to succeed as a woman" gimmicks. Then again, the CoC does not have a "Recognizing Men of Excellence" program, nor do I get "how to succeed as a man" gimmicky emails (well, I get other "how to succeed as a man" emails, but those go to spam, hahaha.) So, while I appreciate your rant, there is truth to the discrimination, and rather than being left alone to do your job, may I humbly suggest that you instead become vocal about doing your job (like you did here) and help bring equality to the scene. And I would also submit that, frankly, the reason the wife stays home with the sick kids is "simply" because women do tend to be more nurturing than men. It's an archetype thing, but the truth of archetypes is also important to recognize and honor. Having raised my son from 9 years old to now 22 as a single parent, I can well appreciate the loving touch that a woman provides, having to have learned how to be more nurturing myself raising my son. Thoughts? Marc
Testers Wanted!
Latest Article: User Authentication on Ruby on Rails - the definitive how to
My BlogI guess I look at the lower pay statistics and the "consciousness" with some degree of suspicion. 1. Is this true in the software profession? 2. IF women in the same job as a man are being paid less - do they have the same years of experience? - did they put in the hours to work the hot projects? - have they published/spoken as much? - did they constantly pick the projects that would expose them to the latest high paying technology? - etc. I think it's pretty hard to be really sure you are comparing apples and apples. I'm not saying discrimination doesn't ever happen. I've occasionally run across it. But I find it pretty hard to buy as a systemic thing. I don't personally believe in "Women of" programs or "X of" programs of any type other than accomplishment. If you want to have a Developers of Excellence program or a Chamber of Commerce Business Person of Excellence program, more power to you. Replacing the "good old boys" network with a "good old girls" one does no one any good. We've moved past that, let's not go back. I'd submit that those with the experience and leadership to mentor newer members of the profession should do that regardless of anything except talent and willingness to work hard. It may as a cultural thing turn out that more often women choose to take on family duties but as some of our colleagues pointed out above, that isn't always the case. I think being a single parent is a very tough thing regardless of your gender. My hat is off to you for pulling it off. My 2 cents
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:thumbsup: I am sick of the media in general continuing to report in terms of sex, Like 'first woman professor of ...' etc. Surely sex isn't relevant unless, well, it's relevant? I also disagree with them mentioning race in this context, but know some racial minority members (politically correct enough?) see it as being a positive role model. Be interested in your view, as a non-male.
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
The media seems to love to be able to report the "first of" in any category. There was recently a story about the "first charity pub" in the media. Nope. Sorry. We've had one here for a while. Not that I'm God's gift to Wisdom but my 2 cents is that people who overcome actual adversity make good positive role models. My father was one. He grew up so poor he'd wake up with snow on him where it had come in the roof. Thanks to his company he was able to put himself through college while working full-time after he already had a family. He did well enough to provide us a very nice middle-class life. To him education was the way out of poverty and it wasn't "if" we were going to college, it was "where" and "for what". That's a role model. There are many, many others who have started out with less than ideal situations who through hard work and talent have overcome what they started with. They just get it done. Those to me are the people who need to be shown as role models.
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The media seems to love to be able to report the "first of" in any category. There was recently a story about the "first charity pub" in the media. Nope. Sorry. We've had one here for a while. Not that I'm God's gift to Wisdom but my 2 cents is that people who overcome actual adversity make good positive role models. My father was one. He grew up so poor he'd wake up with snow on him where it had come in the roof. Thanks to his company he was able to put himself through college while working full-time after he already had a family. He did well enough to provide us a very nice middle-class life. To him education was the way out of poverty and it wasn't "if" we were going to college, it was "where" and "for what". That's a role model. There are many, many others who have started out with less than ideal situations who through hard work and talent have overcome what they started with. They just get it done. Those to me are the people who need to be shown as role models.
Member 8824288 wrote:
"first charity pub"
You mean there's a pub that will give booze to the needy? No wonder nobody told the media!
Member 8824288 wrote:
people who overcome actual adversity make good positive role models.
I agree - but the media seem to take the stance that achieving anything as a woman is overcoming adversity; while I admit that there is plenty of mysogony out there, without a specific instance, it become almost a "WOW! This woman is clever enough to be P.M.!" story - which I think sends all the wrong messages.
Member 8824288 wrote:
so poor he'd wake up with snow on him where it had come in the roof.
Roof?! You were lucky! We had to sleep in 'paper bag in middle of t'road ... (sorry - had to be said!) In an ideal world, I think, there would be no mention of a person's sex, creed, colour etc. unless it was strictly relevant.
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I think work/life balance is a struggle everywhere, but especially in IT, and especially if you work from home at all. I work every Sat for at least a few hours, and often on weekends, because the office is right there, and things need to be done. That's why I hate smart phones. Can't people spend a BIT of time disconnected from the rest of the world ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Can't people spend a BIT of time disconnected from the rest of the world ?
That is entirely up to you.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Rant on - I've been in the software profession for a very, very long time now. I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat. I am female. I have been bombarded lately by articles, emails, etc. telling me how to succeed in this industry as a female. It's simple (and hard) - figure out what the business needs, keep on top of the technology and write software that meets those needs. I don't need to know how to dress for success as a woman (code project!), join any woman only IT groups, listen to a newly-minted MVP who's been in development for a year (drove me batty to see that one), etc. It reminds me of when I went to buy a pickup truck and the sales guy tried to show me the makeup mirror. Geez! Just let me do my friggin job without telling me how it is impossible for me to "succeed" because of my gender. The only thing that is a lot harder in this profession as a woman is balancing work with kids because let's face it as enlightened as we all like to think we are - if you both have equally challenging jobs somehow the wife still stays home with the sick kids usually and deals with the school. I think this is where a lot of the women who start in IT go. It's really tough to keep that balance and be on the hot projects too. I don't need a special hand up to succeed. I am perfectly capable of learning what I need to know to do the job like anyone else. Enough already! - rant off
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Member 8824288 wrote:
I started as a real-time concurrent programmer and these days wear a web developer's hat.
[OT] How the hell do things like this happen? What makes people go from programming real-time systems to web development?
more from me | GALex: C++ Library for Advanced Genetic Algorithms
Money?
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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If it's any consolation you would probably face the same attitudes in any other profession. Mind you, I have seen (a couple) women use their 'gender' to get their own way in business, so I guess it sometimes cuts both ways.
Use the best guess
My missus worked for the NHS. The entire community ward she was based in was 100% women, excluding a gay-as-a-coot nurse who she said, might have well been a woman by another name. She told me there was no balance in the decision-making process and that she would have respected the institution more if there had have been more men. She now works for a hospice and while the ward staff are mostly female the management is a healthier blend of both sexes and she told me it makes a big difference to getting things done and planned, knowing there is a balance. I've worked with some wonderful ladies in development and I never had less than 100% respect for them and confidence in them. Unfortunately, IT is male dominated and I've worked with some real assholes who treated the female workers with contempt. On one occasion I worked for a mining house in Joburg; I reported one dog-shyte to HR and lodged a formal complaint against him. He came out of it with a face liked a slapped arse so I think he might have got a verbal or written warning. Not long after, he got called-up to do his two year compulsory military service. Never saw or heard of that skid mark ever again.:thumbsup:
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
