Is Winforms dead ?
-
Here's a small selection of techs/etc that have been declared dead despite being alive: - assembly. Used plenty on embedded platforms, but even on PC: intrinsics only get you most of the way, assembly is still used by those who need to go all the way. See the code for video encoders and such. - fortan, still big in scientific computing. - cobol, used by banks and such. - MUMPS, still used despite actually being a disease. - 6502, z80, and other "surely we don't use these anymore"-CPUs - check your calculator and appliances that seem smart. - x86, how the hell can people call it dead? ARM devices are not taking over, they're here in addition to normal PCs - Windows (all), usually in favour of Linux or something from Apple, declared by the fanboys of both. Dream on. - Silverlight. It's not even really dead as a browser plugin - used by plenty of streaming sites. It's definitely not dead on Windows Phone, either. - Java, even Applets aren't completely dead yet, though they should be. - GIF, declared dead in favour of APNG. Hasn't happened. If anything it's seeing a massive resurgence. - Native languages. Haha good joke, .NET fanboys. Sure C# is cool, but not everyone is using it all the time. Go check how many programs that you actually use are native - probably at least 90% of them. - Windows XP, "end of support" does not mean "it stops working now". It will continue to work for the foreseeable future, and people will continue to use it - usage decayed roughly exponentially, the 0 is at (approximately) infinity. - Flash, declared dead in favour of HTML5+JS. See youtube (what happened to their HTML5 mode?), kongregate, armorgames, etc, and annoying ads. Used by the streaming sites that aren't using Silverlight. - Dial-up, though it doesn't really deserve to live. - 16bit PC programs, despite not working on most new PCs due to their OS. - DOS and DOS programs - still happily powering the inventory management in a couple of stores in my area, that must mean at least some others use it too. Supposedly also used by some airlines, perhaps that explains why they suck so much. Here's a small list of things that are actually dead: - Managed Direct X, the reason for being dead is MS literally killed it - it actually doesn't work anymore. - ??? As a general rule, nothing dies. Usage will decay slowly, but, as long as it keeps working, it will never go away.
If I add IE6/IE7, will you call Godwin's law on me?
Pablo. "Accident: An inevitable occurrence due to the action of immutable natural laws." (Ambrose Bierce, circa 1899).
-
If I add IE6/IE7, will you call Godwin's law on me?
Pablo. "Accident: An inevitable occurrence due to the action of immutable natural laws." (Ambrose Bierce, circa 1899).
-
WPF is even more dead than Win Forms. My advice would be save yourself a huge learning curve and frustration and stick to Win Forms.
Wout
Interesting point of view. What makes you say so? :confused:
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
-----
Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
-----
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
-----
Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932 -
Hi John, thanks for that, I too am a conservative prick and don't want to see *everything webised*. In-house systems still have their place without having to *share* everything on farcebook or twitter. I personally would not like my company business on FB or Twitter.
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
Wout is right that going from Winforms to WPF entails a steep learning curve. But I don't quite agree with him that WPF is dead. After all, Visual Studio itself is written in WPF...
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
-----
Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
-----
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
-----
Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932 -
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Adam Nathan's WPF Unleashed
I stalled working through this book for some reason. Maybe my approach was wrong but I was kinda hoping the code samples would all work in isolation. I'm not saying his book is bad but I couldn't work out if it was a cookbook of WPF topics or something you could work through cover-to-cover building up as you progressed? A good while back there was some thought that WPF itself was "doomed", in the sense smarter people than me said, "Go west, young man, there's HTML5 and CS3 in them thar hills." Was that viewpoint correct or has the anti-WPF camp mellowed?
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
The HTML5/CSS camp are vociferous in their denial of all things desktop. WPF is still alive and well - it may not be getting the new features that people have asked for, but it's still got some life in it yet. It's not being deprecated as a technology any time soon.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
No, but it has entered the hospice. It'll almost certainly limp on for years, the pool of new work will start to dry up to a trickle (or already has - I don't know). Most winforms development will be about maintaining existing systems. Everything is pretty uncertain now, Microsoft seems to be making a lot of good business decisions but screwing up badly on the detail. Take as an example Win8 - excellent idea to have a single Tablet device/PC platform, but instead of having a readily switch-able desktop optimised vs touch optimised UI, it is profiled for tablets. Though it'd take an age for MS to fail (and I don't think it will) for the first time in my career I don't see working with MS technologies as a totally safe bet. WPF was an excellent technology, I thought it was dead but, as other posters have pointed out, Pete has hinted at good things to come with it. I do hope so, coming from a mostly web-UI background I learned Winforms and WPF at roughly the same time, I found WPF much easier to get to grips with so I was semi-shocked at Winforms developers criticising it (the main genuine concern for me was poorer performance if not properly done & a blurry text problem that didn't get fixed AFAIK). In your position I'd look for a good article on WPF, especially one that uses the M-V-VM pattern. WPF is similar to silverlight and the XAML is used in Win8 apps. The M-V-VM pattern goes hand in glove and will not only give you an "in" to newer desktop techs, but would make a theoretical jump to MVC easier.
“Education is not the piling on of learning, information, data, facts, skills, or abilities - that's training or instruction - but is rather making visible what is hidden as a seed”
“One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated”Sir Thomas More (1478 – 1535)
Keith Barrow wrote:
a blurry text problem that didn't get fixed AFAIK)
The blurry text issue was fixed in WPF 4. I guess you were using 3.5.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
WinForms is definitely not dead, and arguably it is less dead than WPF. WPF's big selling point was that it was very similar to Silverlight, and Silverlight has been canned (or at least served notice of a canning), and while XAML is still in the game for Metro, you can't (I don't think anyway) just write WPF UIs and expect them to work there. WPF's also excluded from Mono, if you're worried about cross platform compatibility.
BobJanova wrote:
WPF's big selling point was that it was very similar to Silverlight,
Wrong way round. Silverlight came long after WPF.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
Apologies if this has been asked before - but I have been working in a cave for quite a few years and have just escaped. If Winforms is indeed dead what has taken over ? I hear WPF,MVC and a myriad of other acronyms but can't seem to find a definitive answer. I know I'm setting myself up for a torrent of sarcasm but this is still a good site for advice . Many thanks for reading this.
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
I still see no compelling reason to use WPF for the vast majority of WinForm'ish work, especially given the continued excellent third party WinForm controls made by vendors such as DevExpress. However, I do think web-based applications will become more prevalent, which is worrying because I still consider the Internet to have a certain fragility. I'll digress for a minute to discuss that. Let's consider the number of players involved in a web app. You have: the physical infrastructure itself, from wires strung across poles or buried in pipes underground the internet provider the hosting provider the company providing the "cloud" space for the app and probably a few things I'm forgetting. Compare that to an app running autonomously on, say, your laptop. That's it. You don't need to be plugged in to a chain of dependencies in order to work. So, back to the point - the key issue for me is the "data" interaction requirements, and I use the term "data" loosely to include even things like multiplayer games. If the data needs to be accessible in an uncontrolled access environment (for example, Code Project has no way to predict who or from where people will visit its "data") then a web-based application is a natural fit. When access to the data is very deterministic, then a client-server environment with a thick client (WinForm or WPF, for example) provides advantages, and the Internet simply becomes a mechanism for supporting remote access, which is the exception, not the rule. And finally, you have pure "device only" applications that can be autonomous, and data is typically shared via a separate application--usually email, but also FTP and uploads to a website. Code Project is probably a good example of an environment where all three modalities are in use. It, by necessity, requires the web, I imagine that there are non-web applications in use to monitor activity and perform other important tasks on the server, and finally, as an author, I can write an article autonomously and then upload the content via the web interface. So, the reason there are so many acronyms at the moment is that there are several different technologies being used depending on how to best work with the data. For example, I have never written an article in CP's editor that is available through the browser, but I do usually do final formatting fixes as that's the first time I can see what the article looks like in a web presentation. So, in my opinion, WinForm is not dead and WPF, while it can look like WinForm
-
Keith Barrow wrote:
a blurry text problem that didn't get fixed AFAIK)
The blurry text issue was fixed in WPF 4. I guess you were using 3.5.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierWe started with the beta, albeit quite late on :-\ the advantages for our application were so clear we took the risk - and this was in a Building Society. By the time I'd left we'd upgraded to 3.5 and I wasn't so involved. The original problem was relatively infrequent so that, in the little bits of work I do to try and keep my hand in, I hadn't noticed it "going". Good to know they fixed it.
“Education is not the piling on of learning, information, data, facts, skills, or abilities - that's training or instruction - but is rather making visible what is hidden as a seed”
“One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated”Sir Thomas More (1478 – 1535)
-
WPF is even more dead than Win Forms. My advice would be save yourself a huge learning curve and frustration and stick to Win Forms.
Wout
Not sure I agree, the transition from WPF to The Interface Formerly Known as Metro should be a lot smoother than if you're starting from WinForms.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
-
Wout is right that going from Winforms to WPF entails a steep learning curve. But I don't quite agree with him that WPF is dead. After all, Visual Studio itself is written in WPF...
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
-----
Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
-----
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
-----
Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932Johnny J. wrote:
But I don't quite agree with him that WPF is dead. After all, Visual Studio itself is written in WPF...
What VS is written in doesn't mean shit...
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
IMHO WinForms is not completly dead, yet. But to save your *ss, learn WPF. Afterwards it will be easy to get over to MFC, MVC and Silverlight. However, in the end it depends what you want to do on your day job (Web apps, web services, client applications or micro controller programming?).
**Marco Bertschi
Silverlight is a lost cause because android and apple don't support it, and windows mobile stuff is a VERY small percentage of that market. If you're in an all-Microsoft shop doing intranet stuff, Silverlight might be the best path, but MS has, for intents and purposes, killed it. Thus, Silverlight (unfortunately) is a dead end.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
BillWoodruff wrote:
and actually may be locked out of editing their existing files if they don't continually subscribe
That's a dangerous thing to speculate on Bill, but it rings true and is possible.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
Adobe has confirmed that this will happen.
“Human beings do not live in the objective world alone, nor alone in the world of social activity as ordinarily understood, but are very much at the mercy of the particular language which has become the medium of expression for their society. It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of communication or reflection." Edward Sapir, 1929
-
Hi John, thanks for that, I too am a conservative prick and don't want to see *everything webised*. In-house systems still have their place without having to *share* everything on farcebook or twitter. I personally would not like my company business on FB or Twitter.
When the going gets weird the weird turn pro - Hunter S Thompson RIP
I think the latest news may start making more people question the wisdom of loading all their data to cloud solutions.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
-
IMHO WinForms is not completly dead, yet. But to save your *ss, learn WPF. Afterwards it will be easy to get over to MFC, MVC and Silverlight. However, in the end it depends what you want to do on your day job (Web apps, web services, client applications or micro controller programming?).
**Marco Bertschi
Marco Bertschi wrote:
it will be easy to get over to MFC,...
er.. I really don't see any connection at all between WPF and MFC. Quite a different kettle of fish. WPF - .NET framework for GUI applications using declarative markup. MFC - Dated C++ framework for GUI applications. I really can't see how learning WPF would help that. I really can't see why anyone would bother learning MFC anymore.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
-
Preach it brother. A previous developer where I work thought it would be a really good idea to actually hand-roll a grid. I've seen some cheap, nasty, sinister code before, but to see business logic meshed into owner-drawn graphics to paint the columns and rows was simply the worst I've ever seen. I'm sure he thought he was Top Gun but what he produced was a Rabbit's Bottom Pellet. Code like that gives WinForms a bad name.
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
Sounds like another VB6 dev made the plunge into .NET, bring all their accumulated wisdom with them.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
-
It looks so... I have slated WinForms, WPF is definitely the way to go... It won't be long enough when, everything in windows will become managed... WP8 is already out there, WPF with MVVM and Data Binding and numerous other things, greatly simplifies app coding and maintainance. So a great :thumbsup: for WPF!
WP8 actually allows you to write native app's, unlike WP7, so I think you may be misinformed. Similarly Metro allows authoring app's using XAML and C++, the first time MS have allowed using C++ in this environment, so I think you're misinformed again.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
-
WP8 actually allows you to write native app's, unlike WP7, so I think you may be misinformed. Similarly Metro allows authoring app's using XAML and C++, the first time MS have allowed using C++ in this environment, so I think you're misinformed again.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob Grainger wrote:
WP8 actually allows you to write native app's, unlike WP7, so I think you may be misinformed.
Yap, I admit... I'm not one of those folks out there, who're fiddling with mobile devices... I just own a plain old Nokia Symbian s40 mobile over 5 years old.
Rob Grainger wrote:
Similarly Metro allows authoring app's using XAML and C++, the first time MS have allowed using C++ in this environment, so I think you're misinformed again.
Anyway, it remains in managed environment using CLR... I could never really understand this mix
-
Rob Grainger wrote:
WP8 actually allows you to write native app's, unlike WP7, so I think you may be misinformed.
Yap, I admit... I'm not one of those folks out there, who're fiddling with mobile devices... I just own a plain old Nokia Symbian s40 mobile over 5 years old.
Rob Grainger wrote:
Similarly Metro allows authoring app's using XAML and C++, the first time MS have allowed using C++ in this environment, so I think you're misinformed again.
Anyway, it remains in managed environment using CLR... I could never really understand this mix
Amitosh Swain wrote:
Anyway, it remains in managed environment using CLR...
That's where you're misinformed. Writing Metro app's using XAML actually use native C++, not C++/CLR similar to COM programming back in the day. I think the confusion comes because MS adopted the hat notation for COM references (T^) which looks like those in C++/CLR, but you can opt to use libraries more akin to ATL if you're fond of making life hard for yourself (or using another C++ compiler). My personal bugbear if they've restricted all the native goodness to the Metro/NewUI elements - I can't take advantage of these in desktop app's, and I'm not going to waste time developing for a crappy app store marketplace, where I'm restricted in what I can develop, what I can access, etc. We're slowly surrendering our rights to control our own hardware, and a lot of folk seem not to care.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
-
Amitosh Swain wrote:
Anyway, it remains in managed environment using CLR...
That's where you're misinformed. Writing Metro app's using XAML actually use native C++, not C++/CLR similar to COM programming back in the day. I think the confusion comes because MS adopted the hat notation for COM references (T^) which looks like those in C++/CLR, but you can opt to use libraries more akin to ATL if you're fond of making life hard for yourself (or using another C++ compiler). My personal bugbear if they've restricted all the native goodness to the Metro/NewUI elements - I can't take advantage of these in desktop app's, and I'm not going to waste time developing for a crappy app store marketplace, where I'm restricted in what I can develop, what I can access, etc. We're slowly surrendering our rights to control our own hardware, and a lot of folk seem not to care.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Rob Grainger wrote:
That's where you're misinformed.
I admit... :-O I'm purely a managed guy, with almost zero experience with native windows stuff! (I'm familiar with standard c++ and linux). I took the jump from Java to C#.
Rob Grainger wrote:
can't take advantage of these in desktop app's, and I'm not going to waste time developing for a crappy app store marketplace, where I'm restricted in what I can develop, what I can access, etc
That's right... metro is crap
