Knowledge Property
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Not really. Developed on the job for the job belongs to the job.
Yes I second this. This is what every company tells me when I join them. In fact, we have some strict guidelines not to use other companies libs without their permission. The library could have been developed by you in your last company but still they wouldn't encourage you to use this for your current work inside the office premises, PC. Unless the License info says it's completely free for commercial distribution.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Using personal code in company code can be a legal minefield. There are many things that have to be taken into consideration and you really need to run this by the legal team. 1. If there is a problem with the code, where does liability lie? Does it lie with the company or with you? 2. What license agreement do you have in place on your code? If your code is GPL3 (for instance), and your company gives your code to the client, then they should be bound by GPL 3 as well if they included this code in one of their applications. 3. What does the contract between your client and your company say?
Chill _Maxxx_
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
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Using personal code in company code can be a legal minefield. There are many things that have to be taken into consideration and you really need to run this by the legal team. 1. If there is a problem with the code, where does liability lie? Does it lie with the company or with you? 2. What license agreement do you have in place on your code? If your code is GPL3 (for instance), and your company gives your code to the client, then they should be bound by GPL 3 as well if they included this code in one of their applications. 3. What does the contract between your client and your company say?
Chill _Maxxx_
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierThis is the first entry that gave me some logic. Thank you. You've helped correct my thinking. Mainly, #1. If I claim the code as my own then I could be liable. By working for a company that takes on that liability, it protects me from litigation. So, I don't want to claim the code as my own. I've always had the thought that code is in a legal grey area because it is the product of my knowledge but it is not the end-product. The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product. They definately don't own my knowledge and code is somewhere in between. Of course I know that the stuff I write on company time is definately theirs. But, as I said in the original post, these libraries have been developed over my entire career. I may even have some that I made in school that proved to be useful (a long, long time ago). So, these libraries are my bag of tricks. The company I work for at the time gets my bag of tricks when I incorporate them into the solutions I produce. At that point, the code is theirs. #2 - I work for a small company that hasn't bothered making me sign anything. #3 - I'm not privy to that.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
If you did, would the legal dept allow you to use it?
We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
I haven't signed an agreement like that. Obviously, what is created during work hours is theirs. However, if I have a business on the side of writing an IOS app that has nothing to do with my employer I doubt there would be any court that would try to argue that it belongs to the company I worked for. With, or without, a signed agreement.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
A form like that would not likely hold up in court... just like most non-compete clauses. However, I'm not a lawyer.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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I haven't signed an agreement like that. Obviously, what is created during work hours is theirs. However, if I have a business on the side of writing an IOS app that has nothing to do with my employer I doubt there would be any court that would try to argue that it belongs to the company I worked for. With, or without, a signed agreement.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer :), especially if there is a signed contract.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
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Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
OriginalGriff wrote:
Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
I signed one of them years ago when I moved to a job paying 40%+ more. Went home the first day and wrote a program that printed CSC Australia diddle little kids all over the place. I can't believe the bastards didn't want the code.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.
I remain joe!
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In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.
I remain joe!
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That's not actually the same thing as saying that anything you write (which could be, and probably is, something entirely unrelated to whatever you're doing at your job) in your free time is theirs as well.
Correct, I got that wrong. Next time I should get a lawyer to read my contract and honestly I didn’t read my entire contract. I only checked the salary, benefits and leave days then signed on the dotted line – I was told by a colleague to check that clause, I have just verified it. Thanks let me go through the entire contract.
I remain joe!
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We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Then how do we know it's yours? You packaged it with company property. Sounds like it is company property but you are trying to lay claim to it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer :), especially if there is a signed contract.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
ChandraRam wrote:
Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer :) , especially if there is a signed contract.
I seem to recall making this very statement a little less than a year ago. I do not believe I gave you rights to reproduce. Fortunately for me I have a good lawyer friend that has been itching to do something like this pro bono (PR etc.). You will be getting some papers in the mail. I suggest you take the settlement we offer:)
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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This is the first entry that gave me some logic. Thank you. You've helped correct my thinking. Mainly, #1. If I claim the code as my own then I could be liable. By working for a company that takes on that liability, it protects me from litigation. So, I don't want to claim the code as my own. I've always had the thought that code is in a legal grey area because it is the product of my knowledge but it is not the end-product. The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product. They definately don't own my knowledge and code is somewhere in between. Of course I know that the stuff I write on company time is definately theirs. But, as I said in the original post, these libraries have been developed over my entire career. I may even have some that I made in school that proved to be useful (a long, long time ago). So, these libraries are my bag of tricks. The company I work for at the time gets my bag of tricks when I incorporate them into the solutions I produce. At that point, the code is theirs. #2 - I work for a small company that hasn't bothered making me sign anything. #3 - I'm not privy to that.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product.
That is not at all the case. It should be clear to you that companies understand ownership of source code is more valuable that compiled code. And as Pete said its all about how are you claiming it is licensed. If it is not, then the moment you used it with your company code it became theirs (unless past places have the right to claim it, which in all likelihood they could if they wanted to).
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Then how do we know it's yours? You packaged it with company property. Sounds like it is company property but you are trying to lay claim to it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves, I know one of my libraies started life as a VB5 calls in the mid 90s, it has been rewritten many times and is currently in c# servicing Silverlight apps. At least 12 organisations that I know of have had copies of the source in one form or another and all of them have the source.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
