Knowledge Property
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
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Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
OriginalGriff wrote:
Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
I signed one of them years ago when I moved to a job paying 40%+ more. Went home the first day and wrote a program that printed CSC Australia diddle little kids all over the place. I can't believe the bastards didn't want the code.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.
I remain joe!
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In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.
I remain joe!
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That's not actually the same thing as saying that anything you write (which could be, and probably is, something entirely unrelated to whatever you're doing at your job) in your free time is theirs as well.
Correct, I got that wrong. Next time I should get a lawyer to read my contract and honestly I didn’t read my entire contract. I only checked the salary, benefits and leave days then signed on the dotted line – I was told by a colleague to check that clause, I have just verified it. Thanks let me go through the entire contract.
I remain joe!
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We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Then how do we know it's yours? You packaged it with company property. Sounds like it is company property but you are trying to lay claim to it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer :), especially if there is a signed contract.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
ChandraRam wrote:
Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer :) , especially if there is a signed contract.
I seem to recall making this very statement a little less than a year ago. I do not believe I gave you rights to reproduce. Fortunately for me I have a good lawyer friend that has been itching to do something like this pro bono (PR etc.). You will be getting some papers in the mail. I suggest you take the settlement we offer:)
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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This is the first entry that gave me some logic. Thank you. You've helped correct my thinking. Mainly, #1. If I claim the code as my own then I could be liable. By working for a company that takes on that liability, it protects me from litigation. So, I don't want to claim the code as my own. I've always had the thought that code is in a legal grey area because it is the product of my knowledge but it is not the end-product. The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product. They definately don't own my knowledge and code is somewhere in between. Of course I know that the stuff I write on company time is definately theirs. But, as I said in the original post, these libraries have been developed over my entire career. I may even have some that I made in school that proved to be useful (a long, long time ago). So, these libraries are my bag of tricks. The company I work for at the time gets my bag of tricks when I incorporate them into the solutions I produce. At that point, the code is theirs. #2 - I work for a small company that hasn't bothered making me sign anything. #3 - I'm not privy to that.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product.
That is not at all the case. It should be clear to you that companies understand ownership of source code is more valuable that compiled code. And as Pete said its all about how are you claiming it is licensed. If it is not, then the moment you used it with your company code it became theirs (unless past places have the right to claim it, which in all likelihood they could if they wanted to).
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Then how do we know it's yours? You packaged it with company property. Sounds like it is company property but you are trying to lay claim to it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves, I know one of my libraies started life as a VB5 calls in the mid 90s, it has been rewritten many times and is currently in c# servicing Silverlight apps. At least 12 organisations that I know of have had copies of the source in one form or another and all of them have the source.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
This code was mine before this company relationship started.
In which case, you should consider simply providing the company with the compiled dll's as well, not the source code... Even if you give it to them for free rather than selling it, you can rest assured that your libraries will indeed remain yours.
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves, I know one of my libraies started life as a VB5 calls in the mid 90s, it has been rewritten many times and is currently in c# servicing Silverlight apps. At least 12 organisations that I know of have had copies of the source in one form or another and all of them have the source.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves,
To me it implied he kept his code everywhere he went and only left DLLs and EXEs behind. Otherwise, every employer of his would have a copy of his code up to the day he left and he would be building on his copy at every new company, similar to your 12 organizations' copies. In this case, the point is moot since his employer could always share his code once he leaves.
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves,
To me it implied he kept his code everywhere he went and only left DLLs and EXEs behind. Otherwise, every employer of his would have a copy of his code up to the day he left and he would be building on his copy at every new company, similar to your 12 organizations' copies. In this case, the point is moot since his employer could always share his code once he leaves.
I always find this puzzling as it points to a different mind set, I can only work x number of hours in a day and I NEVER intend to sell software ever again so I'm happy for other to benefit from my code if they choose. Others wish to "own" their code and see no benefit in sharing with others, I created this it's mine you hear all mine, you can use the DLL but the source is all mine. I don't consider this greedy or negative, just different to me.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Joel Palmer wrote:
This code was mine before this company relationship started.
In which case, you should consider simply providing the company with the compiled dll's as well, not the source code... Even if you give it to them for free rather than selling it, you can rest assured that your libraries will indeed remain yours.
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
Good point. I'll keep that in mind.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
If I use my own libraries in the solutions I provide to my employer then at that point I believe I give up all rights to them. At that point, I've made a program that will not run unless those libraries are there. So, by including them with the solution I've given up any rights to them. I'm now more convinced of this than ever because of a comment made above about liability. The company I work for takes on the risk and liability if my program goes terribly wrong for a customer. In that case, I don't want my name anywhere near the code... especially if they accuse us of doing something malicious. Because the company takes on the liability they have the entire code base.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Like so many others, you seem to be closing the gate after the horse has bolted, or whatever the saying is. If you write code for an employer, then that code is owned by the employer. If you already had some code and you used that in your employer's code base then, essentially, you wrote that code for your employer. You just did it VERY fast. What you needed to do, if you didn't intend giving the rights to your employer, is make an agreement before you used your source code. If you left your job tomorrow, would you delete the source of the code you had used from your library? If not, then what difference does it make? If so, then what is your current employer meant to do if they need to make a change? I have had many an agreement to sign saying all the source code I develop while employer will belong to the company; I always make a change so that it defines the exact terms (e.g. code developed for their applications, during working hours. Only ever had one company argue the point, as they were concerned I could duplicate their processes in my own software and so compete - so we worded it appropriately that I wouldn't work on any competitive product. Frankly I have many many routines I use and have used in different jobs that make my life easier - and I have also learned from other devs code that they might have brought in from elsewhere. I'm not making money directly from selling my code, so I'm more than happy to let people have it - in fact it gives me a buzz when I find that companies I have never worked for are using my code!
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
I solved this problem years ago by first granting full source rights to my employers (or those with whom I was contracting.) I got tired of this about ten years ago and just made all my bag-o-tricks libraries open source with a license very similar to ZLib. I put this on every non-disclosure and am very careful about what code is marked with the notice. I also make sure that I never mix company IP with these libraries. Technically, you own the copyright, but you also likely modified your own libraries on your employer's dime and made it entangled. Moreover, if you didn't notify your employer that your software was covered by copyright, that would be highly deceptive, if not downright dishonest. To make it more complicated, since you likely wrote some of that code while in the employ of others, they could make an assertion that you stole their intellectual property, as could your current boss. (Even if all you did was improve your code on the side, you are still operating within the bounds of your employment duties.)
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
Several cases have shown it not to be enforceable, but the cost of fighting often outweighs any profit. Other cases, claiming "intellectual copyright" have been upheld, where the knowledge to create the code was gained from the company (e.g. if they pay to train you to use specific things in specific ways). The nastiest of those I've heard of was a guy who wrote a BASIC course book, which was based on a course that he created and implemented while working as a trainer for a company that has a girl somewhere. The company got 50% of the royalties (which IIRC, came to about three-pounds-fifty).
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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They pay you. The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours. You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'. If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.
I'd rather be phishing!
Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
