Knowledge Property
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They pay you. The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours. You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'. If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.
I'd rather be phishing!
Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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Yes I second this. This is what every company tells me when I join them. In fact, we have some strict guidelines not to use other companies libs without their permission. The library could have been developed by you in your last company but still they wouldn't encourage you to use this for your current work inside the office premises, PC. Unless the License info says it's completely free for commercial distribution.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
That's actually a law in my country. At least for 50 years, then it becomes public domain. Fun fact, the law is 30 years old and granted protection from the date it was published, so no code has ever falen in public domain yet =p
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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I'm also in the UK. My contract said basically, anything I make for the company is their's, including ideas about their systems. Anything that I come up with that isn't related (i.e. a game idea in a mailing company) is mine.
You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
Here it is if you use any resource from the company, from internet connection to IP.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
I hope you've obfuscated the DLL before giving it otherwise its a gone-with-the-gorilla case. I too have a Data Mapping DLL that simplifies all of the database activity. I first learnt idea from my college roommate but he was unable to complete it. I completed it at first job and actually demonstrated that lib at an interview to get the job. Initially it was in C. then in Borland C++, then MFC and lastly it is now in C#. Only Problem is that it is good productivity tool but it cannot be sold as tool especially to the company you are working for.
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You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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If I use my own libraries in the solutions I provide to my employer then at that point I believe I give up all rights to them. At that point, I've made a program that will not run unless those libraries are there. So, by including them with the solution I've given up any rights to them. I'm now more convinced of this than ever because of a comment made above about liability. The company I work for takes on the risk and liability if my program goes terribly wrong for a customer. In that case, I don't want my name anywhere near the code... especially if they accuse us of doing something malicious. Because the company takes on the liability they have the entire code base.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
That is usually the safe approach for an individual. For third-party code (commercial businesses), they usually put some disclosure on the top of each file to the effect of "not being liable if something fails due to the use of their code" and "others not being able to resell the code for the purpose of selling the code, but being able to modify it for their own customizations without selling the modified code as stand-alone code". You can always add something similar to yours when you give it up. Or you can just let them keep it if you're not actually making money independantly from them (royalties).
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I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started.
I did not miss the point, but you may have. The code could be built by the Queen of England, but if there is no licencing on it then the code is "owned" by is whoever has possession of it. While Damian has a point about libraries that even is not entirely true. The reason being is if the libraries themselves had no actual licensing then nothing is stopping your employer from reverse engineering it. Look closely at all packaged software. They tend to have that in the agreement. Also, I would doubt that your employer would actually be OK with using your compiled code and not having access to the libraries.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
For "my stuff" that falls in this category, I treat it as share-able code (ie, open source). Of course, this differs from your approach but I do "take it with me" and I don't think there can be an issue because I keep a notice at the top of each source. Eg: // The contents of this file are subject to the Mozilla Public License Version 1.1 (the "License") ..... I also make sure that when I tweak it, I do so on my machine[s]. However, IANAL ...
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I'm curious now, if you were to get a virus because your company antivirus sucked, could you sue them if it ruined your personal files? ("personal" being "entirely created by your resources in your time for your stuff")
I don't think so, you aren't suposed to use company machines to store your files, and they aren't responsible for any non-company machines you plug on their network (most company's actually deny access to the network).
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel, Unless there's specific law, this is a grey area. Ownership of the code ought to depend on the contract under which it is written. If you wrote it in your own time or under a contract where you retained IP (there are such contracts!) and can prove it then the "gorilla" comapny can't claim ownership; although they might be able to sue your employer if an attempt was made to charge them a licence (and your employer might be able to sue you!). I advocate 2 things: Agree with your employer that you can use open source/ free licence code, including code that you yourself have written previously; comment your code to indicate that you wrote it and when and the licence terms under which you are prepared to share it (e.g. "freely use and alter" "not fit for any purpose", "hold free from damages", "retention of these comments"). You might refer to the GNU licence if that's appropriate. Under any jurisdiction that I know, that would protect your future and ongoing use and prevent anyone suing you if there's a bug! In practice, it's unlikely that you would ever get in to hot water over commonly used utilities that would look almost identical if you were to write them again from scratch!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
ChandraRam wrote:
I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
I worked for a large well-known software company for 20 years that had such a policy, though they did have a process by which you could get permission to do personal projects that were not on company time or resources if the project was not related to the company's business and didn't cause a conflict of interest. I went through the process once - IMHO it was more painful than it need to be, so then so are most things that involve lawyers.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
No. Long answer: It will be difficult, specially if you didn't signed anything saying that the code was yours or theirs, otherwise your contract should clearly specify this.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
When is the code I write mine?
Depending on the laws that cover your jurisdiction, the code you wrote is yours when you write it entirely at your own expense, on your own equipment, and on your own time, and sometimes not even then. Once yours, it remains yours as long as you do the correct things to retain that ownership. Giving copies of the source to an employer without a written agreement isn't generally one of those things that helps you retain ownership. Whatever you do, don't make a stink about it. Nothing good will come of it, and the big customer may even decide to bail from the project, and from your company altogether, if there's the slightest hint of legal issues with the code.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
Not like most of developers I know - there are red flags all over that statement. Code that you create belongs to someone. Either you or the company. If you are an employee UNLESS you have a specific contract then ALL of the code that you write for the company, even out of the office (related to their product), belongs to them. There can be restrictions on the out of the office part but in general even if you want to do something for fun completely different than the business of the company you should not agree to be employed until you have a contract that states you can work on such outside projects. If you are a contractor and unless your contract states it, then ALL of the code that your write belongs to you. However MOST of the time the contract will give ownership to the company. If it belongs to the company you cannot take it. You cannot use it. It cannot be used by another company. You have no control nor say in how it is used. If it belongs to you and you switch companies with an existing code base then you MUST have contract that stipulates ownership before using it at the new company. Although not essential it prevents potential legal problems from arising. And none of the above is by convention. It is by law. You can be sued for violating the above. In some case you can be criminally prosecuted. And the companies involved can be sued as well. And any such legal proceedings is not going to help in the future.
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
harold aptroot wrote:
Is that even enforceable?
Yes. If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home. If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that 1 - there is NO code from the company in it. 2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it. So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking. And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
Not like most of developers I know - there are red flags all over that statement. Code that you create belongs to someone. Either you or the company. If you are an employee UNLESS you have a specific contract then ALL of the code that you write for the company, even out of the office (related to their product), belongs to them. There can be restrictions on the out of the office part but in general even if you want to do something for fun completely different than the business of the company you should not agree to be employed until you have a contract that states you can work on such outside projects. If you are a contractor and unless your contract states it, then ALL of the code that your write belongs to you. However MOST of the time the contract will give ownership to the company. If it belongs to the company you cannot take it. You cannot use it. It cannot be used by another company. You have no control nor say in how it is used. If it belongs to you and you switch companies with an existing code base then you MUST have contract that stipulates ownership before using it at the new company. Although not essential it prevents potential legal problems from arising. And none of the above is by convention. It is by law. You can be sued for violating the above. In some case you can be criminally prosecuted. And the companies involved can be sued as well. And any such legal proceedings is not going to help in the future.
Clearly written. What is hard is that I don't know anyone's background and if they are throwing around what they have heard or if it is something that they have studied and read for themselves. Assuming you are representing the later, now I'm curious how this compares to other professions. So, let me play with this for a moment with a few more hypotheticals. ...and keep in mind, I generally agree that what you state is true, but I'm exploring. Just because someing IS doesn't mean that it SHOULD BE. If I were a journalist working for the New York Times and I wrote a book on the side, does that book, by default, belong to the NYT? Do they have similar contracts that says everything you write is ours unless stated in this contract? Also, if I were a musician and I wrote a song while employed by Sony, by default would I also have no rights unless I had a contract that specifically stated it? It seems like this could be comparable scenarios (he said naively). What I'm driving at is the words "by default". Do the laws by default protect the corporation or do they protect the individual? Or, is there some "employee bill of rights" that actually does protect the individual and would apply to those who CREATE for a living? Or, is this just about working for the MAN?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
Sentenryu wrote:
That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
OK, now I'm curious. 1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.) 2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app? 3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?
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harold aptroot wrote:
Is that even enforceable?
Yes. If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home. If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that 1 - there is NO code from the company in it. 2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it. So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking. And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.