Knowledge Property
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I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves, I know one of my libraies started life as a VB5 calls in the mid 90s, it has been rewritten many times and is currently in c# servicing Silverlight apps. At least 12 organisations that I know of have had copies of the source in one form or another and all of them have the source.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves,
To me it implied he kept his code everywhere he went and only left DLLs and EXEs behind. Otherwise, every employer of his would have a copy of his code up to the day he left and he would be building on his copy at every new company, similar to your 12 organizations' copies. In this case, the point is moot since his employer could always share his code once he leaves.
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves,
To me it implied he kept his code everywhere he went and only left DLLs and EXEs behind. Otherwise, every employer of his would have a copy of his code up to the day he left and he would be building on his copy at every new company, similar to your 12 organizations' copies. In this case, the point is moot since his employer could always share his code once he leaves.
I always find this puzzling as it points to a different mind set, I can only work x number of hours in a day and I NEVER intend to sell software ever again so I'm happy for other to benefit from my code if they choose. Others wish to "own" their code and see no benefit in sharing with others, I created this it's mine you hear all mine, you can use the DLL but the source is all mine. I don't consider this greedy or negative, just different to me.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Joel Palmer wrote:
This code was mine before this company relationship started.
In which case, you should consider simply providing the company with the compiled dll's as well, not the source code... Even if you give it to them for free rather than selling it, you can rest assured that your libraries will indeed remain yours.
Quad skating his way through the world since the early 80's... Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
Good point. I'll keep that in mind.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote:
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
If I use my own libraries in the solutions I provide to my employer then at that point I believe I give up all rights to them. At that point, I've made a program that will not run unless those libraries are there. So, by including them with the solution I've given up any rights to them. I'm now more convinced of this than ever because of a comment made above about liability. The company I work for takes on the risk and liability if my program goes terribly wrong for a customer. In that case, I don't want my name anywhere near the code... especially if they accuse us of doing something malicious. Because the company takes on the liability they have the entire code base.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Like so many others, you seem to be closing the gate after the horse has bolted, or whatever the saying is. If you write code for an employer, then that code is owned by the employer. If you already had some code and you used that in your employer's code base then, essentially, you wrote that code for your employer. You just did it VERY fast. What you needed to do, if you didn't intend giving the rights to your employer, is make an agreement before you used your source code. If you left your job tomorrow, would you delete the source of the code you had used from your library? If not, then what difference does it make? If so, then what is your current employer meant to do if they need to make a change? I have had many an agreement to sign saying all the source code I develop while employer will belong to the company; I always make a change so that it defines the exact terms (e.g. code developed for their applications, during working hours. Only ever had one company argue the point, as they were concerned I could duplicate their processes in my own software and so compete - so we worded it appropriately that I wouldn't work on any competitive product. Frankly I have many many routines I use and have used in different jobs that make my life easier - and I have also learned from other devs code that they might have brought in from elsewhere. I'm not making money directly from selling my code, so I'm more than happy to let people have it - in fact it gives me a buzz when I find that companies I have never worked for are using my code!
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
I solved this problem years ago by first granting full source rights to my employers (or those with whom I was contracting.) I got tired of this about ten years ago and just made all my bag-o-tricks libraries open source with a license very similar to ZLib. I put this on every non-disclosure and am very careful about what code is marked with the notice. I also make sure that I never mix company IP with these libraries. Technically, you own the copyright, but you also likely modified your own libraries on your employer's dime and made it entangled. Moreover, if you didn't notify your employer that your software was covered by copyright, that would be highly deceptive, if not downright dishonest. To make it more complicated, since you likely wrote some of that code while in the employ of others, they could make an assertion that you stole their intellectual property, as could your current boss. (Even if all you did was improve your code on the side, you are still operating within the bounds of your employment duties.)
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
Several cases have shown it not to be enforceable, but the cost of fighting often outweighs any profit. Other cases, claiming "intellectual copyright" have been upheld, where the knowledge to create the code was gained from the company (e.g. if they pay to train you to use specific things in specific ways). The nastiest of those I've heard of was a guy who wrote a BASIC course book, which was based on a course that he created and implemented while working as a trainer for a company that has a girl somewhere. The company got 50% of the royalties (which IIRC, came to about three-pounds-fifty).
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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They pay you. The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours. You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'. If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.
I'd rather be phishing!
Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms. Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8) I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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Yes I second this. This is what every company tells me when I join them. In fact, we have some strict guidelines not to use other companies libs without their permission. The library could have been developed by you in your last company but still they wouldn't encourage you to use this for your current work inside the office premises, PC. Unless the License info says it's completely free for commercial distribution.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
That's actually a law in my country. At least for 50 years, then it becomes public domain. Fun fact, the law is 30 years old and granted protection from the date it was published, so no code has ever falen in public domain yet =p
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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I'm also in the UK. My contract said basically, anything I make for the company is their's, including ideas about their systems. Anything that I come up with that isn't related (i.e. a game idea in a mailing company) is mine.
You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
Here it is if you use any resource from the company, from internet connection to IP.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
I hope you've obfuscated the DLL before giving it otherwise its a gone-with-the-gorilla case. I too have a Data Mapping DLL that simplifies all of the database activity. I first learnt idea from my college roommate but he was unable to complete it. I completed it at first job and actually demonstrated that lib at an interview to get the job. Initially it was in C. then in Borland C++, then MFC and lastly it is now in C#. Only Problem is that it is good productivity tool but it cannot be sold as tool especially to the company you are working for.
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You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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If I use my own libraries in the solutions I provide to my employer then at that point I believe I give up all rights to them. At that point, I've made a program that will not run unless those libraries are there. So, by including them with the solution I've given up any rights to them. I'm now more convinced of this than ever because of a comment made above about liability. The company I work for takes on the risk and liability if my program goes terribly wrong for a customer. In that case, I don't want my name anywhere near the code... especially if they accuse us of doing something malicious. Because the company takes on the liability they have the entire code base.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
That is usually the safe approach for an individual. For third-party code (commercial businesses), they usually put some disclosure on the top of each file to the effect of "not being liable if something fails due to the use of their code" and "others not being able to resell the code for the purpose of selling the code, but being able to modify it for their own customizations without selling the modified code as stand-alone code". You can always add something similar to yours when you give it up. Or you can just let them keep it if you're not actually making money independantly from them (royalties).
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I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started.
I did not miss the point, but you may have. The code could be built by the Queen of England, but if there is no licencing on it then the code is "owned" by is whoever has possession of it. While Damian has a point about libraries that even is not entirely true. The reason being is if the libraries themselves had no actual licensing then nothing is stopping your employer from reverse engineering it. Look closely at all packaged software. They tend to have that in the agreement. Also, I would doubt that your employer would actually be OK with using your compiled code and not having access to the libraries.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
For "my stuff" that falls in this category, I treat it as share-able code (ie, open source). Of course, this differs from your approach but I do "take it with me" and I don't think there can be an issue because I keep a notice at the top of each source. Eg: // The contents of this file are subject to the Mozilla Public License Version 1.1 (the "License") ..... I also make sure that when I tweak it, I do so on my machine[s]. However, IANAL ...
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I'm curious now, if you were to get a virus because your company antivirus sucked, could you sue them if it ruined your personal files? ("personal" being "entirely created by your resources in your time for your stuff")
I don't think so, you aren't suposed to use company machines to store your files, and they aren't responsible for any non-company machines you plug on their network (most company's actually deny access to the network).
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel, Unless there's specific law, this is a grey area. Ownership of the code ought to depend on the contract under which it is written. If you wrote it in your own time or under a contract where you retained IP (there are such contracts!) and can prove it then the "gorilla" comapny can't claim ownership; although they might be able to sue your employer if an attempt was made to charge them a licence (and your employer might be able to sue you!). I advocate 2 things: Agree with your employer that you can use open source/ free licence code, including code that you yourself have written previously; comment your code to indicate that you wrote it and when and the licence terms under which you are prepared to share it (e.g. "freely use and alter" "not fit for any purpose", "hold free from damages", "retention of these comments"). You might refer to the GNU licence if that's appropriate. Under any jurisdiction that I know, that would protect your future and ongoing use and prevent anyone suing you if there's a bug! In practice, it's unlikely that you would ever get in to hot water over commonly used utilities that would look almost identical if you were to write them again from scratch!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
ChandraRam wrote:
I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
I worked for a large well-known software company for 20 years that had such a policy, though they did have a process by which you could get permission to do personal projects that were not on company time or resources if the project was not related to the company's business and didn't cause a conflict of interest. I went through the process once - IMHO it was more painful than it need to be, so then so are most things that involve lawyers.