US-Canada Contract rates
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I am getting few inquiries about developing few applications in Perceptual Computing. It ranges from New Applications to integrating PerC in existing one. Estimated man hour will be varying from 100 hours to about 800 hours. Applications will be written in C#+Wpf+PerC. In India, we are getting about $15 par hour( :sigh: ). I just wanted to know from US based programmers as to what would be a good contract rate for such applications. I have 10 years of experience and have produced several enterprise, app store, entertainment specific apps. Also if anybody can throw some light on what is the basis rate at which they are outsourced to India would be of great help.
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You are living a fantasy. If you quote US, Candadian or European rates to do work then I really hope that the work will go to someone in one of those countries.
Peter Wasser Art is making something out of nothing and selling it. Frank Zappa
No, it wont. :-D For the particular type of project, not many can match my skill set! In this case, neither my Indian origin is unknown nor the skills. So in a technical bidding I will outbid just about anybody. My problem at this moment is not competency or if I quote high I loose, it is to know what are the average work pays across these two continents. I don't want to make myself look fool. That is it.
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No, it wont. :-D For the particular type of project, not many can match my skill set! In this case, neither my Indian origin is unknown nor the skills. So in a technical bidding I will outbid just about anybody. My problem at this moment is not competency or if I quote high I loose, it is to know what are the average work pays across these two continents. I don't want to make myself look fool. That is it.
The rates paid in other countries relate to costs in those countries. Our taxes, rents, compliance costs and living costs are different to yours. We have competed against each other to get the rates to where they are. Outsourcing overseas costs money also and is quite often (mostly) uneconomical even if the work is done 'cheaply'. Thus the rate you will charge has nothing at all to do with overseas rates except it must be a lot less to make it in any way attractive. As for your skill set I am not going to disagree with you except how will you prove this. Whether it exceeds what may be available elsewhere I sincerely doubt. I say without any intended malice that your expectations appear to be quite unrealistic.
Peter Wasser Art is making something out of nothing and selling it. Frank Zappa
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The rates paid in other countries relate to costs in those countries. Our taxes, rents, compliance costs and living costs are different to yours. We have competed against each other to get the rates to where they are. Outsourcing overseas costs money also and is quite often (mostly) uneconomical even if the work is done 'cheaply'. Thus the rate you will charge has nothing at all to do with overseas rates except it must be a lot less to make it in any way attractive. As for your skill set I am not going to disagree with you except how will you prove this. Whether it exceeds what may be available elsewhere I sincerely doubt. I say without any intended malice that your expectations appear to be quite unrealistic.
Peter Wasser Art is making something out of nothing and selling it. Frank Zappa
Peter. I definitely understand a little economics. So I am not living in a Arabian Night world. :-D Take it easy. But to draw your attention on certain issues, I would like to elaborate a little. A good meal in urban India is $2 max. Three star meal $5. I am not saying I want to quote a US rate for any work. Firstly, most of the Indian IT firms( of any scale) targets service sector. The Product and Services in most of the big firms is 20-80 in terms of percentage. The reason is, getting work from US and Europe has been easy for these guys. In average, IT guys works for about 12 hours a day and $1000 pm is average salary. That makes it about $3 ph. Add to infrastructure and other costs, doesn't go beyond $7 ph. With even $10 ph quote, they make a lot of money you see. Why do these Indian companies get the projects? Is it for low cost only? Not really. In IT, you have a huge amount of work in testing, back end monitoring and other aspects. A large % of regular IT of the companies are spent on maintenance. This is relentless and thankless job. Obviously you don't want to burden your IT costs by setting aside a huge cost for maintenance? Therefore off-shoring has been a reasonable option, both for service industry here and for US. Now let us see the skills a little. India produces a large number of engineering graduates every year. However none of the Indian universities rank high in world any more. Does that mean the it is degraded beyond imagination? No, Indian education system was never a scientist producing education. It is still here where it was a decade back, the world has moved forward. However a say about 10% of these engineers are also quite good in terms of talent and skills. A large percentage of this pool moves to US either as recruits or on onsite, leaving the actual equation unchanged here. But what needs to be understood is that it is still a good system producing decent enough professional in large number. iPhone is designed once. You don't need designers every day. You need production support. Will a designer work in production support? No, company would no be able to afford it. Indian IT sector has long understood this equation and hence it sustains. Our case is slightly different. We are 100% product based firm and offer no service. 90% of the business comes from prototyping. This is an area not many professional firms are well equipped with. We have a long pool of Indian clients and we are happy with what we are doing or what we have done. We have also delivered several
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Peter. I definitely understand a little economics. So I am not living in a Arabian Night world. :-D Take it easy. But to draw your attention on certain issues, I would like to elaborate a little. A good meal in urban India is $2 max. Three star meal $5. I am not saying I want to quote a US rate for any work. Firstly, most of the Indian IT firms( of any scale) targets service sector. The Product and Services in most of the big firms is 20-80 in terms of percentage. The reason is, getting work from US and Europe has been easy for these guys. In average, IT guys works for about 12 hours a day and $1000 pm is average salary. That makes it about $3 ph. Add to infrastructure and other costs, doesn't go beyond $7 ph. With even $10 ph quote, they make a lot of money you see. Why do these Indian companies get the projects? Is it for low cost only? Not really. In IT, you have a huge amount of work in testing, back end monitoring and other aspects. A large % of regular IT of the companies are spent on maintenance. This is relentless and thankless job. Obviously you don't want to burden your IT costs by setting aside a huge cost for maintenance? Therefore off-shoring has been a reasonable option, both for service industry here and for US. Now let us see the skills a little. India produces a large number of engineering graduates every year. However none of the Indian universities rank high in world any more. Does that mean the it is degraded beyond imagination? No, Indian education system was never a scientist producing education. It is still here where it was a decade back, the world has moved forward. However a say about 10% of these engineers are also quite good in terms of talent and skills. A large percentage of this pool moves to US either as recruits or on onsite, leaving the actual equation unchanged here. But what needs to be understood is that it is still a good system producing decent enough professional in large number. iPhone is designed once. You don't need designers every day. You need production support. Will a designer work in production support? No, company would no be able to afford it. Indian IT sector has long understood this equation and hence it sustains. Our case is slightly different. We are 100% product based firm and offer no service. 90% of the business comes from prototyping. This is an area not many professional firms are well equipped with. We have a long pool of Indian clients and we are happy with what we are doing or what we have done. We have also delivered several
I suspect this should have nothing to do with geographical location, make the bid based on your skills and the clients requirements. I would probably apply client location rates (which you seem to be doing) and let them try and negotiate it down. I would go to some Canadian job site and look for contracts in a comparative skill set/level and use that as a starting point.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Peter. I definitely understand a little economics. So I am not living in a Arabian Night world. :-D Take it easy. But to draw your attention on certain issues, I would like to elaborate a little. A good meal in urban India is $2 max. Three star meal $5. I am not saying I want to quote a US rate for any work. Firstly, most of the Indian IT firms( of any scale) targets service sector. The Product and Services in most of the big firms is 20-80 in terms of percentage. The reason is, getting work from US and Europe has been easy for these guys. In average, IT guys works for about 12 hours a day and $1000 pm is average salary. That makes it about $3 ph. Add to infrastructure and other costs, doesn't go beyond $7 ph. With even $10 ph quote, they make a lot of money you see. Why do these Indian companies get the projects? Is it for low cost only? Not really. In IT, you have a huge amount of work in testing, back end monitoring and other aspects. A large % of regular IT of the companies are spent on maintenance. This is relentless and thankless job. Obviously you don't want to burden your IT costs by setting aside a huge cost for maintenance? Therefore off-shoring has been a reasonable option, both for service industry here and for US. Now let us see the skills a little. India produces a large number of engineering graduates every year. However none of the Indian universities rank high in world any more. Does that mean the it is degraded beyond imagination? No, Indian education system was never a scientist producing education. It is still here where it was a decade back, the world has moved forward. However a say about 10% of these engineers are also quite good in terms of talent and skills. A large percentage of this pool moves to US either as recruits or on onsite, leaving the actual equation unchanged here. But what needs to be understood is that it is still a good system producing decent enough professional in large number. iPhone is designed once. You don't need designers every day. You need production support. Will a designer work in production support? No, company would no be able to afford it. Indian IT sector has long understood this equation and hence it sustains. Our case is slightly different. We are 100% product based firm and offer no service. 90% of the business comes from prototyping. This is an area not many professional firms are well equipped with. We have a long pool of Indian clients and we are happy with what we are doing or what we have done. We have also delivered several
Grasshopper.iics wrote:
India produces a large number of engineering graduates every year. However none of the Indian universities rank high in world any more.
I beg to differ. A CS graduate from an IIT[^] can pretty much walk into MIT, Stanford, CalTech and Berkeley, or if they choose, Google and Microsoft. This 60 Minutes segment[^] echoes these sentiments. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Grasshopper.iics wrote:
India produces a large number of engineering graduates every year. However none of the Indian universities rank high in world any more.
I beg to differ. A CS graduate from an IIT[^] can pretty much walk into MIT, Stanford, CalTech and Berkeley, or if they choose, Google and Microsoft. This 60 Minutes segment[^] echoes these sentiments. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Any IIT or NIT CS/EC graduate is a true potential. So 90% of them prefer to leave for US. I have mentioned a 5 also. India produces 3.5L CS engineers every year alone and IIT graduates don't make over 1%. As they leave to US, the equation back home remains unaltered. One more thing, generally a IIT student can crack any other top exams and they actually have. So, the pool of students who gets into IIT are the brightest of the lot. Having said that, number of publications and referred publication from IITs cumulatively has gone down. http://www.crazyengineers.com/threads/iits-find-place-in-world-university-rankings-are-indian-students-proud.67913/[^] So as a whole nothing innovative is attributed by IIT as far as Indian IT ethics and practices are concerned.
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Any IIT or NIT CS/EC graduate is a true potential. So 90% of them prefer to leave for US. I have mentioned a 5 also. India produces 3.5L CS engineers every year alone and IIT graduates don't make over 1%. As they leave to US, the equation back home remains unaltered. One more thing, generally a IIT student can crack any other top exams and they actually have. So, the pool of students who gets into IIT are the brightest of the lot. Having said that, number of publications and referred publication from IITs cumulatively has gone down. http://www.crazyengineers.com/threads/iits-find-place-in-world-university-rankings-are-indian-students-proud.67913/[^] So as a whole nothing innovative is attributed by IIT as far as Indian IT ethics and practices are concerned.
I didn't realize almost 90% of IIT grads leave India. I would've hoped more of them remain behind (and possibly work for international companies, but in India). :( /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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I didn't realize almost 90% of IIT grads leave India. I would've hoped more of them remain behind (and possibly work for international companies, but in India). :( /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Problem is, though MS, Google, IBM has a big presence in India, their Indian operations are to great extend limited to testing, production support, maintenance, and offshore. So true opportunity back here is limited. Since emergence of Apple, few companies like RoboSoft is doing well. But still such companies are limited in number and openings are very low. It is not that Indian companies are not getting new projects, they do. But since over the years the talent grooming mechanism is failed, you don't have great deal of expertise to execute entirely here. Do do have great talents here too. But sadly exception always proves the rule. Therefore when we talk about Indian IT, it has to be cheap offshore but anything else. So even when we get the opportunity, we need to fight against this general theory. India is no more a cheap country either. A good flat in Bangalore would cost anything between $75,000 to $1,00,000. Affording a house is almost out of question. So, Indian companies are finding it tough to sustain growth, to focus on innovations and to compete globally.
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Problem is, though MS, Google, IBM has a big presence in India, their Indian operations are to great extend limited to testing, production support, maintenance, and offshore. So true opportunity back here is limited. Since emergence of Apple, few companies like RoboSoft is doing well. But still such companies are limited in number and openings are very low. It is not that Indian companies are not getting new projects, they do. But since over the years the talent grooming mechanism is failed, you don't have great deal of expertise to execute entirely here. Do do have great talents here too. But sadly exception always proves the rule. Therefore when we talk about Indian IT, it has to be cheap offshore but anything else. So even when we get the opportunity, we need to fight against this general theory. India is no more a cheap country either. A good flat in Bangalore would cost anything between $75,000 to $1,00,000. Affording a house is almost out of question. So, Indian companies are finding it tough to sustain growth, to focus on innovations and to compete globally.
Grasshopper.iics wrote:
India is no more a cheap country either.
Very true. I've been reading of some low(er)-tech IT outsourcing now being channeled to the Phillipines and Viet Nam. India offers the advantage of an English speaking workforce, but that is becoming less relevant. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
