QI Facts
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Only the students. By the time they reach professorhood, they've lost all faith.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Nice, an ad hominem attack and a suggestion that I was making a religious argument. More fuel to my point that the evolutionist are just as bad as the creationists.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Nice, an ad hominem attack
It wasn't an attack on the person.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
and a suggestion that I was making a religious argument
It certainly looks like one to me.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
More fuel to my point that the evolutionist are just as bad as the creationists.
Whatever label, there's always people who actually refuse to think. Good and bad are als merely labels, and they're usually religously colored.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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What astonishes me is the number of highly intelligent and capable people who are religious as I consider religion the panacea of a weak mind.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
The human mind is weak and religion is the panacea, created to explain what we can not. Realizing the amount of stuff we don't know and taking a glance at the possibilities can be devastating to the mind, that's why people turn to religion. One example of such realization is Sir Arthur C. Clarke's Quote:
Sir Arthur Charles Clarke:
Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.
Once we know the "truth", we get used to it. But, in the mean time, the possibilities make we look for confort, and religion is aways there to say that you don't have to think about it, after all, it's some god's work. And just because i like his quotes, i'll drop this one here too:
Sir Arthur Charles Clarke:
If we have learned one thing from the history of invention and discovery, it is that, in the long run — and often in the short one — the most daring prophecies seem laughably conservative.
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It's not the fact that scientist call it a theory (Which is is, otherwise it would be called the law of evolution; on a side not, I love watching a adamant evolutionist state, "Well it's pretty much a law" but that will be addressed later. It's not the holes in the theory (personally I think evolution is a pretty good theory as for what we have going) My problem with evolution, is that fundamentalist bigots are usually on the wrong side. Sure I expect the christian right to by fairly opposed but I have yet to meet an evolutionist who is wiling to concede that it is just a theory and they go to name calling fast. No offense DD but calling people stupid because they don't agree with you is bigotry [but only because of my limited vocabulary], (Yes, yes, I know it is pretty much a law) So my fundamental believe is not in evolution but that evolution fits into a larger puzzle and that only time will tell which it is.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost "All users always want Excel" --Ennis Lynch
I followed a coursera course on the history of Humankind. When the teacher explains what is science he calls it "The discovery of ignorance". In a good way. The birth of Science is when humankind started to dare to say : "I don't know but let's figure out". Before science, religion "knew it all". By definition evolutionism is from religion, and religion is not driven by doubt, but by certainty. Only science embraces doubt.
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Richard Deeming wrote:
The only time we need to be concerned is when someone claims that evidence or proof exists but cannot be examined,
But to be fair when was that last time that you did a scientific test that proved the authenticity, for yourself, for the dinosaur bones in your local museum? When was the last time that you even applied to the museum to do that? Or what about dissecting a cadaver to check the that that thumping in the chest really, really is a heart. The reality is that the vast, vast majority of 'science' that even scientists accept is based on faith and nothing more. Much less the general population. They haven't done the tests. They haven't even read most of the literature. They don't know the people involved. They don't even know the processes involved. After all do hear surgeons know what sort of review process a civil engineer goes through to get a bridge built? Presumably neither believes the other uses magic but that doesn't mean that their understanding of what the other does is any different than presuming it to be little more than magic.
jschell wrote:
The reality is that the vast, vast majority of 'science' that even scientists accept is based on faith and nothing more.
Not quite. It would be based on faith if the evidence was not available to be examined. In all of the cases you've mentioned, the evidence is available; it's just that not everyone has the necessary background in the subject to interpret it. The days when any one person could understand the entirety of human knowledge are long gone. We all specialize in particular fields, so we all have to take someone else's word for it when it comes to subjects that we don't understand. It's just a question of whether we choose to believe a group of people who actively try to disprove their own conclusions and fail, or a group of people who argue that to question their conclusions is blasphemous.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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we have to take someone's word for it.
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a large group of respected scientists who have specialized in this field, on the understanding that the evidence is available and can be examined by anyone with sufficient knowledge, and that the scientists themselves are actively trying to disprove their own theories.
The irony here is you can say the exact same thing, except for the bolded part, about religion. And that's that, since we can't talk religion here. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
The irony here is you can say the exact same thing, except for the bolded part, about religion.
Nope. I have never claimed blah blah blah... Edit: Sorry, misread that part as "you say" instead of "you can say". :-O I would disagree with that claim. Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence; you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it. And I don't have a problem with that, so long as we can agree that faith is not science, and vice-versa. Also, the part you have highlighted is extremely important. Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories; religionists actively discourage people from questioning their beliefs. Given the choice, I will take the word of someone whose ideas have been rigorously tested over that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote:
Common DNA is a good start, but it's far from the only evidence supporting common descent:
All science is based on assumptions. Every single piece. If I start with the assumption that there is no supernatural explanation then Evolutionary Theory pretty much follows. If I start with the assumption that there is a God (Judeo-Christian in this case) and that the world was created 6000 years ago I can explain every single piece of evidence that you can produce now and in the future and still remain consistent with the assumption. I wouldn't be refuting it merely explaining how it exists with respect to the assumption. The only difference in the above is the assumption. I can do the same with Noah's Ark for that matter.
jschell wrote:
The only difference in the above is the assumption.
And it's a pretty big assumption. The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Okay, this would be an example of why I don't typically participate in these discussions. People get really irrational when defending their mythologies. The point about the American Psychiatric Association and their view on homosexuality was to illustrate that your logical fallacy (appeal to authority, appeal to masses) was demonstrably wrong. Instead of admitting the point you simply adopted the point (scientists may be wrong) and are now trumpeting it as a strength of science. Unfortunately for you, I can still beat you there. You see, you admit that the American Psychiatric Association can change their views and you admit in the same post that sometimes the truth is buried because that's more to do with the politics of the scientific community. So when the APA held that homosexuality was a mental illness was it due to evidence or politics? So when the APA changed their view on the topic was it due to evidence or politics? The truth is, you don't actually know for sure either way. You think they've got evidence that informs their ruling because that is what they tell you. Your position on the APA and homosexuality is identical to a little boy believing his Sunday School teacher. Incidentally, you may have the last word as I tire of the circles. :-D
OK, so in 1950, the scientific community largely believed that homosexuality was an illness. In the same year, the religious community largely believed that homosexuality was a sin. In 2013, the scientific community no longer believe that homosexuality is an illness. What do the religious community believe? The change of opinion was based on evidence; research consistently failed to provide any scientific evidence that homosexuality was an illness. The fact that scientists may be wrong is not a strength of science. The fact that they are willing to change their minds when presented with new evidence is.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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RyanDev wrote:
The irony here is you can say the exact same thing, except for the bolded part, about religion.
Nope. I have never claimed blah blah blah... Edit: Sorry, misread that part as "you say" instead of "you can say". :-O I would disagree with that claim. Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence; you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it. And I don't have a problem with that, so long as we can agree that faith is not science, and vice-versa. Also, the part you have highlighted is extremely important. Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories; religionists actively discourage people from questioning their beliefs. Given the choice, I will take the word of someone whose ideas have been rigorously tested over that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence
To answer this I will have to break the rules and explain how religion benefits us. One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief" so to be technical there is plenty of evidence (grounds for belief) that a creator exists.
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you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it.
This is something I have discussed many, many times on this site (in the Soapbox granted) but this statement is not actually true. It is a very common belief among those who don't believe in a creator. However, in religion someone says, "If you want to know if God exists, here are the steps...", and that IS evidence that anyone in the world can examine for themselves. Now you might argue that not everyone will come to the same conclusion, which is true, and which also happens in science even. However, the evidence is there, has been there for thousands of years, and can be examined by anyone. It is repeatable and observable. I actually find it quite ironic how similar religion and science really are. Of course, only people like myself who believe in both religion and science seem to see this connection but it is funny to see far wing religionists argue against far wing scientists because I can see that they both have so much in common.
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Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories;
I have to disagree with that. No one is actively trying to disprove evolution, at least never that I have heard of. What they are doing is trying to find evidence to support that theory and you know very well that you can always find what you look for.
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that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
I assume you mean religion. Of course you know you can't prove religion wrong, at least not the part about there being a creator which is the topic of this thread. And I would argue that since religion has been around since the beginning it has withstand much more than just scrutiny. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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jschell wrote:
The only difference in the above is the assumption.
And it's a pretty big assumption. The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations,
First off, most Christians and as far as I know, all other religions, do not believe this. So, those that believe this are very few. Most Christians recognize that time is relative and that time to us is not the same as time to our God and the fact is we really have no idea how old the earth is. Science might be correct, we don't know. We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago and so some people assume that is how old the earth is but it could have been millions of years that Adam spent in the garden. It could have been billions of years between the time that God called the fifth "day" and the time He called the sixth "day." Anyway, we don't really know. However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc. Of course I don't believe personally that God is like that at all but the idea you proposed is not far off since you yourself likely did something similar, just on a smaller scale. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence
To answer this I will have to break the rules and explain how religion benefits us. One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief" so to be technical there is plenty of evidence (grounds for belief) that a creator exists.
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you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it.
This is something I have discussed many, many times on this site (in the Soapbox granted) but this statement is not actually true. It is a very common belief among those who don't believe in a creator. However, in religion someone says, "If you want to know if God exists, here are the steps...", and that IS evidence that anyone in the world can examine for themselves. Now you might argue that not everyone will come to the same conclusion, which is true, and which also happens in science even. However, the evidence is there, has been there for thousands of years, and can be examined by anyone. It is repeatable and observable. I actually find it quite ironic how similar religion and science really are. Of course, only people like myself who believe in both religion and science seem to see this connection but it is funny to see far wing religionists argue against far wing scientists because I can see that they both have so much in common.
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Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories;
I have to disagree with that. No one is actively trying to disprove evolution, at least never that I have heard of. What they are doing is trying to find evidence to support that theory and you know very well that you can always find what you look for.
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that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
I assume you mean religion. Of course you know you can't prove religion wrong, at least not the part about there being a creator which is the topic of this thread. And I would argue that since religion has been around since the beginning it has withstand much more than just scrutiny. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief"
Sorry, I should have specified that I meant scientific evidence[^].
RyanDev wrote:
No one is actively trying to disprove evolution
Not true. Based on the highly scientific method ;) of "typing it into Google", millions of people are actively trying to disprove evolution. But perhaps you meant to say that scientists are not actively trying to disprove evolution? The fact that science has already disproved several of Darwin's ideas would seem to disprove that suggestion. Science doesn't just make a guess, cherry-pick evidence to support it, and then claim it to be the truth. [*] There is a rigorous process in place to ensure that all the evidence is taken into account. Great scientists aren't recognized for accepting the status-quo; they're recognized for challenging it and coming up with new theories which better fit the available evidence. [*] Individual scientists might try this, especially if offered large sums of money, but the scientific community as a whole will generally spot the flaws and refute the biased theory pretty quickly.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations,
First off, most Christians and as far as I know, all other religions, do not believe this. So, those that believe this are very few. Most Christians recognize that time is relative and that time to us is not the same as time to our God and the fact is we really have no idea how old the earth is. Science might be correct, we don't know. We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago and so some people assume that is how old the earth is but it could have been millions of years that Adam spent in the garden. It could have been billions of years between the time that God called the fifth "day" and the time He called the sixth "day." Anyway, we don't really know. However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc. Of course I don't believe personally that God is like that at all but the idea you proposed is not far off since you yourself likely did something similar, just on a smaller scale. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago
I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
RyanDev wrote:
However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc.
Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with? ;P
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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RyanDev wrote:
One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief"
Sorry, I should have specified that I meant scientific evidence[^].
RyanDev wrote:
No one is actively trying to disprove evolution
Not true. Based on the highly scientific method ;) of "typing it into Google", millions of people are actively trying to disprove evolution. But perhaps you meant to say that scientists are not actively trying to disprove evolution? The fact that science has already disproved several of Darwin's ideas would seem to disprove that suggestion. Science doesn't just make a guess, cherry-pick evidence to support it, and then claim it to be the truth. [*] There is a rigorous process in place to ensure that all the evidence is taken into account. Great scientists aren't recognized for accepting the status-quo; they're recognized for challenging it and coming up with new theories which better fit the available evidence. [*] Individual scientists might try this, especially if offered large sums of money, but the scientific community as a whole will generally spot the flaws and refute the biased theory pretty quickly.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Sorry, I should have specified that I meant scientific evidence[^].
Well, I think we could go at this all day. From your link, it says evidence which is empirical and empirical means from observation or experience so what I said still stands. I get it, we disagree. :)
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millions of people are actively trying to disprove evolution.
Stop it!!! :laugh: There is no way there are millions of people working on this. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago
I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
RyanDev wrote:
However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc.
Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with? ;P
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
Not that I was aware of, but perhaps.
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Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with?
You poor kid. No toy can substitute for digging in the dirt. :) You must be too young to remember days before video games.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
Not that I was aware of, but perhaps.
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Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with?
You poor kid. No toy can substitute for digging in the dirt. :) You must be too young to remember days before video games.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
You must be too young to remember days before video games.
Just about, but I'll take that as a compliment! :-D
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I only use my experience there to illustrate the contrast between the sort of science that must occur when someone is going to inject themselves with a drug vs. the kind of science that occurs when someone is waxing nostalgic about unobserved, unrepeatable, unfalsifiable events of 1 billion years ago. People get really picky about what is and what is not science when lives are on the line.
MehGerbil wrote:
People get really picky about what is and what is not science when lives are on the line.
Again not the best argument. Especially in terms of the medical industry. Since there are failures. And thus based on your argument one can infer that there are even more problems in science where lives are not at stake. As an example of that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_touch#Therapeutic_touch_and_nursing_education[^]
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jschell wrote:
The reality is that the vast, vast majority of 'science' that even scientists accept is based on faith and nothing more.
Not quite. It would be based on faith if the evidence was not available to be examined. In all of the cases you've mentioned, the evidence is available; it's just that not everyone has the necessary background in the subject to interpret it. The days when any one person could understand the entirety of human knowledge are long gone. We all specialize in particular fields, so we all have to take someone else's word for it when it comes to subjects that we don't understand. It's just a question of whether we choose to believe a group of people who actively try to disprove their own conclusions and fail, or a group of people who argue that to question their conclusions is blasphemous.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
Not quite. It would be based on faith if the evidence was not available to be examined
That would be valid if it was what I said. I said that the practitioners are themselves accepting many, many things on faith. It has nothing to do with what they could do. It has everything to do with their mental state in regards to what they believe.
Richard Deeming wrote:
It's just a question of whether we choose to believe a group of people who actively try to disprove their own conclusions and fail,
Exactly - belief. Nothing else.
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I don't see where anyone said evolution is wrong. I don't think anyone can say that - I mean, they can believe it is wrong but it will never be proven wrong. The theory is so elastic, so bendable that you can insert a billion years into the timeline at any point and the glob just rolls on completely unmarred. You can have dinosaurs cold blooded or warm blooded based on the availability of a grant or positive press - it does no damage to the theory because it is a vapor, apparently there, but of no real substance.
MehGerbil wrote:
I don't see where anyone said evolution is wrong.
Then you probably haven't been paying enough attention to reports about the debate in common culture.
MehGerbil wrote:
but of no real substance.
That isn't true. There is a great body of consistent conjecture and one cannot just change an arbitrary major part of that without seriously messing up the flow of that. Which to your point doesn't mean it isn't a theory, but it doesn't relegate it to same domain as that of some theory like healing with magnetism either.
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jschell wrote:
The only difference in the above is the assumption.
And it's a pretty big assumption. The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.
Nonsense. I don't need to prove God exists when the very basis of the argument is that existence in the first place. If I said I was going to prove God exists then that would be a different thing. You are entirely free to refuse to accept the assumption in the first place. But it is a logical fallacy to accept the assumption and then attempt to refute the argument based on rejecting the assumption.
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MehGerbil wrote:
In fact, the American Psychiatric Association didn't declassify it as a mental illness until 1973.
<SARCASM> Wait, you mean they changed their views based on the evidence? That doesn't sound very sensible, does it? They should have just said, "our predecessors believed this to be the case, so we believe it as well". </SARCASM>
MehGerbil wrote:
I've illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not something is true.
You've also illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus, unlike religious dogma, changes to reflect any new evidence. Whilst there have been minor changes to the theory of evolution as new evidence has come to light, the central concept has not changed. That doesn't guarantee that's it's definitely "The Truth", but it's a good sign that the theory is robust. Unless and until significant new evidence is presented, evolution is the best tool we have to describe the variety of life on our planet. And even if a new theory does emerge, it doesn't necessarily make the current theory worthless. Newton's theory of gravitation is still the best approach for any non-relativistic calculations, despite the fact that it has been superseded by general relativity.
MehGerbil wrote:
You mean, like the Sunday School teacher might log onto a technology forum and talk about how stupid other people are with what they believe?
No, I mean like the teacher might start questioning whether every word in the bible has to be taken literally; whether transubstantiation is a real thing; whether the physical resurrection of their messiah is a core pre-requisite of their faith. Religions don't have a good track-record for dealing with heretics and apostates. Not that science is perfect in that regard. There have certainly been scientists who have been shunned for their theories, only to be proven right at a later date. But that's more to do with the politics of the scientific community. The scientific method is built around the idea of challenging the consensus; it's just that individuals often find it hard to embrace that idea.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
Richard Deeming wrote:
You've also illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus, unlike religious dogma, changes to reflect any new evidence.
Except of course religions do in fact change. Sometimes very quickly and radically.
Richard Deeming wrote:
But that's more to do with the politics of the scientific community
And the politics of religion. Politics is a people problem not an organization problem.
