Dark Matter
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Dark Matter is one of those things that are used instead of saying "I don't know" -- some people have so much ego in place of intelligence that those words cannot come out of their mouths. "Oh, our current calculations show that there should be more mass in the universe, but we can't see it, and we don't think we've got our calculations wrong, so, rather than admit that we could in any way be wrong, just tell everyone that there's a bunch of Dark Matter, and try to make it sound as sciencey-whyencey as possible." Of course, if there is even one black hole in the universe, then the total mass of the universe shoots up to infinite, so the only problem is that there aren't any black holes -- but no-one will admit that those calculations could be wrong, either.
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I agree with you about 'dark matter' and particularly 'dark energy' which is just a nicer way of wording 'fudge factor'. (Dark matter is essentially matter that we can't observe, and just being non-luminous and spread thinly would work for that, so it's reasonable as an idea if not in the amounts needed to make the numbers work.) You're wrong about black holes though, on both counts. There's no reason that a black hole would have an infinite mass – it may have an infinitely dense singularity at the centre but it's infinitesimally small, and the rest of the hole is just matter, albeit in highly stressed forms. And there is good evidence to suggest something very massive at the centre of our galaxy (orbital velocities and gravitational lensing), as well as several others, along with a mechanism for how black holes can form. I'd like to know what you're basing 'there aren't any black holes' on.
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I agree with you about 'dark matter' and particularly 'dark energy' which is just a nicer way of wording 'fudge factor'. (Dark matter is essentially matter that we can't observe, and just being non-luminous and spread thinly would work for that, so it's reasonable as an idea if not in the amounts needed to make the numbers work.) You're wrong about black holes though, on both counts. There's no reason that a black hole would have an infinite mass – it may have an infinitely dense singularity at the centre but it's infinitesimally small, and the rest of the hole is just matter, albeit in highly stressed forms. And there is good evidence to suggest something very massive at the centre of our galaxy (orbital velocities and gravitational lensing), as well as several others, along with a mechanism for how black holes can form. I'd like to know what you're basing 'there aren't any black holes' on.
BobJanova wrote:
I'd like to know what you're basing 'there aren't any black holes' on.
Hooke's Law. It doesn't matter how pretty your numerical derivations are, there's always a point at which they stop working. Neutron stars? No problem. Black holes? Don't be ridiculous; do some serious work.
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BobJanova wrote:
I'd like to know what you're basing 'there aren't any black holes' on.
Hooke's Law. It doesn't matter how pretty your numerical derivations are, there's always a point at which they stop working. Neutron stars? No problem. Black holes? Don't be ridiculous; do some serious work.
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So you're basing your understanding of relativistic cosmology on a piece of classical mechanics? Hmm. It's widely acknowledged that we don't understand what happens at a singularity because at that single point the equations break down. That's not relevant to any of the rest of a hole though.
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So you're basing your understanding of relativistic cosmology on a piece of classical mechanics? Hmm. It's widely acknowledged that we don't understand what happens at a singularity because at that single point the equations break down. That's not relevant to any of the rest of a hole though.
BobJanova wrote:
So you're basing your understanding of relativistic cosmology on a piece of classical mechanics common bloody sense?
Indeed.
BobJanova wrote:
It's widely acknowledged that we don't understand what happens at a singularity because at that single point the equations break down.
What happens is that the equations break down ( a la Hooke's Law), so a "singularity" cannot form. Something else happens; we have to figure out what, rather than waste our time assuming that the impossible happens and basing everything else on that.
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BobJanova wrote:
So you're basing your understanding of relativistic cosmology on a piece of classical mechanics common bloody sense?
Indeed.
BobJanova wrote:
It's widely acknowledged that we don't understand what happens at a singularity because at that single point the equations break down.
What happens is that the equations break down ( a la Hooke's Law), so a "singularity" cannot form. Something else happens; we have to figure out what, rather than waste our time assuming that the impossible happens and basing everything else on that.
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If you're saying that you don't believe in singularities, that's fair enough. That's entirely different from not believing in black holes at all. The idea of a black hole is not in the region where equations break down, their behaviour is well defined and predictable in the regions where we can observe them (e.g. gravity, behaviour of material falling into them, Hawking radiation).
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If you're saying that you don't believe in singularities, that's fair enough. That's entirely different from not believing in black holes at all. The idea of a black hole is not in the region where equations break down, their behaviour is well defined and predictable in the regions where we can observe them (e.g. gravity, behaviour of material falling into them, Hawking radiation).
You really should look up more sensible formulae, like the functional Schrodinger equation. This backs up the (far more sensible) idea that the density required to form a black hole can never be reached -- again, Hooke's law applies. _Everything_has an "elastic limit"; it just so happens that the completely idiotic idea of it being possible for matter to collapse as far as a black hole was too much of a wet dream for too many people, so they did everything they could to make it real. Bear in mind that no black hole has ever been found, but evidence of other things has been bent to make it look as if there are black holes all over the place, to satisfy the too-childish desires of black-hole aficionados (in pretty much the same way that "inhabitable planets" are being found every three minutes, these days).
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You really should look up more sensible formulae, like the functional Schrodinger equation. This backs up the (far more sensible) idea that the density required to form a black hole can never be reached -- again, Hooke's law applies. _Everything_has an "elastic limit"; it just so happens that the completely idiotic idea of it being possible for matter to collapse as far as a black hole was too much of a wet dream for too many people, so they did everything they could to make it real. Bear in mind that no black hole has ever been found, but evidence of other things has been bent to make it look as if there are black holes all over the place, to satisfy the too-childish desires of black-hole aficionados (in pretty much the same way that "inhabitable planets" are being found every three minutes, these days).
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Okay so what do you think is at the centre of the galaxy? Or if there isn't a very massive invisible thing there, why do the orbits act as if there is? Your explanation has to also fit the evidence and be more plausible then the consensus one ...
BobJanova wrote:
Okay so what do you think is at the centre of the galaxy?
A thing or things that cause a lot of gravity to be exerted, the same as there is in the spiral arms, and the same as there is in the centre and arms of all observable galaxies. Black holes are really not needed as part of the equation. There's just matter, taking up not too much more room (from our observation point) than a black hole would take up.
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Dark Matter is one of those things that are used instead of saying "I don't know" -- some people have so much ego in place of intelligence that those words cannot come out of their mouths. "Oh, our current calculations show that there should be more mass in the universe, but we can't see it, and we don't think we've got our calculations wrong, so, rather than admit that we could in any way be wrong, just tell everyone that there's a bunch of Dark Matter, and try to make it sound as sciencey-whyencey as possible." Of course, if there is even one black hole in the universe, then the total mass of the universe shoots up to infinite, so the only problem is that there aren't any black holes -- but no-one will admit that those calculations could be wrong, either.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
if there is even one black hole in the universe,
Well there is strong evidence that there is at least one bloody big one at the centre of our galaxy.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
then the total mass of the universe shoots up to infinite,
Well the one that is postulated has a mass of something like 6,000,000 solar masses - not quite infinite?
Mark_Wallace wrote:
there aren't any black holes
? I'm not saying you're wrong - but what evidence do you have to support that - or what is your refutation of the significant evidence thus far?
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
if there is even one black hole in the universe,
Well there is strong evidence that there is at least one bloody big one at the centre of our galaxy.
Mark_Wallace wrote:
then the total mass of the universe shoots up to infinite,
Well the one that is postulated has a mass of something like 6,000,000 solar masses - not quite infinite?
Mark_Wallace wrote:
there aren't any black holes
? I'm not saying you're wrong - but what evidence do you have to support that - or what is your refutation of the significant evidence thus far?
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
_Maxxx_ wrote:
I'm not saying you're wrong - but what evidence do you have to support that
Um, the scientific method is to provide evidence to support claims about what exists, not to provide non-existent evidence to prove that something does not exist. Try providing evidence that that the Invisible Pink Unicorn, et al[^], do not exist.
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