What is it with these Gay Rights people
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But before they go out and meet kids in school or even daycare, they start learning from and emulating their parents.
The point is your sample set is too small to make a conclusive stance. I have 2 kids. A son and a daughter. My son will emulate me and my daughter emulates my wife. However, my daughter will also emulate me and my son will also emulate my wife. They also emulate each other and neighborhood kids. Sex of the child has little to do with it. It is more about who they are and what interests them. For example, my daughter does enjoy many masculine games and toys, but she also likes her Hello Kitty doll, Horse, and having tea parties. My son does not prefer to have tea parties but he certainly will have some with his sister sometimes because he enjoys playing with her. They play whatever they want and emulate whoever they want. As they get older they date who they want. Even in the case of hetero-sexual relationships a parent does say "No you can not date them". Is it always successful? I would say more often than not, the child just dates whom they want behind the parents back.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.
I don't disagree with that. However, if you had played with dolls with your son and you had your own doll collection or told him about your (hypothetical) doll collection growing up, he may have been more open. You can emulate someone by what you see and what you don't see. The fact that he plays with his sister is good upbringing. The fcat that he doesn't wish to be exactly like her is even better. But statistically speaking, he probably emulates you the most because you are his role model. Again, nothing you've said negates what I've seen, it just validates it. As for doing things behind your back, that will happen in dating and other aspects. However, I doubt you're not influencing them as they get older to make similar decisions. The problem is, as they get older, external influences (good and bad) get larger and stronger. That isn't anything that anyone can change.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
EVERY kids I've seen has emulated their same sex parent in one way or the other.
And I know a lesbian couple that has a strait daughter.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But I would say with a high certainty that most parents want their kids to be like them in many ways. And that only enforces my point.
That doesn't enforce your point
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It's like that Tom Daley fella. He's admitted he is gay but he is still allowed to Dive into shared Swimming Pools. I mean don't people realise that after these diving events have finished these pools are opened to the public, and children could swim in this very water?
Careful now - there's Americans around, and we know they don't understand sarcasm. :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
And they also emulate the other sex parent. No conclusive data can be obtained from that.
To some degree they do. Particularly when their same sex parent is not around. That works on the same principle as husband and wife starting to look, dress, or sound alike after a few years of marriage. It happens. But the fact still remains that kids emulate their same sex parents. No question about it, which you and he have tried to dispute.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You do not raise someone "straight".
Think about it this way. What did your parents do (or not do) when raising you that made you straight? And before you say, you may want to think about it. Is the opposite true (i.e. if the other sex child was giving the same set of constraints/rules would that make them attracted to a different sex?)Bullshit! I saw them hugging and kissing and holding hands and being there in front of me every single day of the week until I moved out. If that's not raising me, then you have a very different definition for being raised. As for your last statement, that goes back to the argument of nature vs. nurture, choice vs. pre-ordained, or any other way you wish to compare it. We all have our opinions on that and I think mine have been heard enough.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
To some degree they do. Particularly when their same sex parent is not around.
That is non-sense. Kids emulate those around them. It has nothing to do with the sex. My daughter will do things I do and imitate them. She does not emulate me because my wife is not there.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
That works on the same principle as husband and wife starting to look, dress, or sound alike after a few years of marriage.
Again this is non-sense. The husband and wife dress a like in some cases. Those cases one can ask the husband and wife "Why are you with your husband/wife" and I bet one of the answers will be "We get a long very well as we like the same styles etc." You are cherry picking stats and making absurd claims on them. There is plenty of data showing the exact opposite yet you have no justification for it.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But the fact still remains that kids emulate their same sex parents. No question about it, which you and he have tried to dispute.
That is not a fact. The fact is they emulate that which is around them. My daughter likes to play puppy. I am guessing because we own a dog. Next you are going to tell me having a dog increases the chance of my children leaning towards bestiality.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
bullsh*t! I saw them hugging and kissing and holding hands and being there in front of me every single day of the week until I moved out.
What does that have to do with anything. Because you saw 2 people hugging and kissing you are straight?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If that's not raising me, then you have a very different definition for being raised.
That is obvious. I do not see how a person can raise someone to like tomatoes, dark skin, blondes, girls. A person either likes something or they do not. How they are raised only can prejudice it. It does not actually effect their true feelings. For example, a child may say they do not like tomatoes because one of their parents does not like them and never eats them. The child has not actually tried the tomatoes to know if they like it. This is a prejudice that was taught. However, prejudice aside the child may grow up some day and actually try a tomato
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I don't disagree with that. However, if you had played with dolls with your son and you had your own doll collection or told him about your (hypothetical) doll collection growing up, he may have been more open. You can emulate someone by what you see and what you don't see. The fact that he plays with his sister is good upbringing. The fcat that he doesn't wish to be exactly like her is even better. But statistically speaking, he probably emulates you the most because you are his role model. Again, nothing you've said negates what I've seen, it just validates it. As for doing things behind your back, that will happen in dating and other aspects. However, I doubt you're not influencing them as they get older to make similar decisions. The problem is, as they get older, external influences (good and bad) get larger and stronger. That isn't anything that anyone can change.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But statistically speaking, he probably emulates you the most because you are his role model.
That does not mean I can raise him to like something. If I like army men and he does not I am not going to be able to force him into liking them. A child emulates what they like. Not you give them stuff for them to emulate it so they like it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.
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[check the forum title] yep this is the Soapbox so: I don't get the whole furore over Russia's gay laws. It seems to me the not being allowed to promote gay relationships to minors is a GOOD thing. If a teenager is so inclined then they will find out about their options as far as sexuality are concerned. If they are incapable of locating resources then they are not strongly motivated in the gay direction. And no I'm not homophobic, I don't give a rats arse what someones sexual preferences are just keep it to themselves. I would also like to include religion in the ban but I know I'd be pissing in the wind on that one.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Homophobia is like gays, it shouldn't exist. Oh, wait...
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
To some degree they do. Particularly when their same sex parent is not around.
That is non-sense. Kids emulate those around them. It has nothing to do with the sex. My daughter will do things I do and imitate them. She does not emulate me because my wife is not there.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
That works on the same principle as husband and wife starting to look, dress, or sound alike after a few years of marriage.
Again this is non-sense. The husband and wife dress a like in some cases. Those cases one can ask the husband and wife "Why are you with your husband/wife" and I bet one of the answers will be "We get a long very well as we like the same styles etc." You are cherry picking stats and making absurd claims on them. There is plenty of data showing the exact opposite yet you have no justification for it.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But the fact still remains that kids emulate their same sex parents. No question about it, which you and he have tried to dispute.
That is not a fact. The fact is they emulate that which is around them. My daughter likes to play puppy. I am guessing because we own a dog. Next you are going to tell me having a dog increases the chance of my children leaning towards bestiality.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
bullsh*t! I saw them hugging and kissing and holding hands and being there in front of me every single day of the week until I moved out.
What does that have to do with anything. Because you saw 2 people hugging and kissing you are straight?
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If that's not raising me, then you have a very different definition for being raised.
That is obvious. I do not see how a person can raise someone to like tomatoes, dark skin, blondes, girls. A person either likes something or they do not. How they are raised only can prejudice it. It does not actually effect their true feelings. For example, a child may say they do not like tomatoes because one of their parents does not like them and never eats them. The child has not actually tried the tomatoes to know if they like it. This is a prejudice that was taught. However, prejudice aside the child may grow up some day and actually try a tomato
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is non-sense. Kids emulate those around them. It has nothing to do with the sex. My daughter will do things I do and imitate them. She does not emulate me because my wife is not there.
Are you saying that your daughter emulates you and your wife equally? What I meant by not around is divorced parents and widowed. I meant not around long term, not gone shopping or working.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Again this is non-sense.
The fact is, couples tend to pick up each others mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, and all that. Yes it is due to the fact that they've been together a long time and may like what each other likes, but emulation also exists whether consciously or subconsciously.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is not a fact. The fact is they emulate that which is around them.
That is a contradictory statement. At a young age, parents are all around their kids and kids will emulate them. The fact that your daughter emulates a puppy is either her being cute or looking for attention. Either way, she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't actually want to be a puppy. The rest of your statement is just there to make the whole thing sound absurd. LOL!
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
What does that have to do with anything. Because you saw 2 people hugging and kissing you are straight?
Back in my day, we didn't see the other lifestyle on television. So I'm sure we weren't influenced. We need statistics on what percentage of straight parents had kids who grew up gay and what percentage of gay parents had straight kids and see what the trend is down the road. If it's nature, the trend should be moving slowly IMO.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is obvious.
Again you're using absurd statements to make what I said sound absurd. Enough said.
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It was a ... joke. Derived from the joke "Racism is like niggers, should not exist"... That apart, I am completely backing you up and I fundamentally disagree with Bassam. I am even surprised to have this kind of dark age mentality still going round nowadays, but, well, everyone may think what they fancy, as long as their resulting acts do not mean harm for others.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
But statistically speaking, he probably emulates you the most because you are his role model.
That does not mean I can raise him to like something. If I like army men and he does not I am not going to be able to force him into liking them. A child emulates what they like. Not you give them stuff for them to emulate it so they like it.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That does not mean I can raise him to like something. If I like army men and he does not I am not going to be able to force him into liking them.
You can't force him to like something, but if he sees you playing with army men he might start liking it especially if you continue to play with him.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
A child emulates what they like.
A child does not emulate what they like since they already like it. A child emulates when they're not aware of something and copy you tit for tat. After a while, they may start liking it or they may do it out of habit or they may stop completely.
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It was a ... joke. Derived from the joke "Racism is like niggers, should not exist"... That apart, I am completely backing you up and I fundamentally disagree with Bassam. I am even surprised to have this kind of dark age mentality still going round nowadays, but, well, everyone may think what they fancy, as long as their resulting acts do not mean harm for others.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
And I respect your opinion about that, but I shouldn't be forced to accept something just because everybody is on that bandwagon now. I don't go out beating and burning everyone (i.e., anyone) and everything (i.e., anything) that I disagree with. To each his own number one.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is non-sense. Kids emulate those around them. It has nothing to do with the sex. My daughter will do things I do and imitate them. She does not emulate me because my wife is not there.
Are you saying that your daughter emulates you and your wife equally? What I meant by not around is divorced parents and widowed. I meant not around long term, not gone shopping or working.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Again this is non-sense.
The fact is, couples tend to pick up each others mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, and all that. Yes it is due to the fact that they've been together a long time and may like what each other likes, but emulation also exists whether consciously or subconsciously.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is not a fact. The fact is they emulate that which is around them.
That is a contradictory statement. At a young age, parents are all around their kids and kids will emulate them. The fact that your daughter emulates a puppy is either her being cute or looking for attention. Either way, she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't actually want to be a puppy. The rest of your statement is just there to make the whole thing sound absurd. LOL!
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
What does that have to do with anything. Because you saw 2 people hugging and kissing you are straight?
Back in my day, we didn't see the other lifestyle on television. So I'm sure we weren't influenced. We need statistics on what percentage of straight parents had kids who grew up gay and what percentage of gay parents had straight kids and see what the trend is down the road. If it's nature, the trend should be moving slowly IMO.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is obvious.
Again you're using absurd statements to make what I said sound absurd. Enough said.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Are you saying that your daughter emulates you and your wife equally?
No idea. Right now I would say she emulates her brother and the dog the most.... I would not draw any conclusions from it. She is a 4 year old.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What I meant by not around is divorced parents and widowed. I meant not around long term, not gone shopping or working.
You are mixing up things here. Lack of emulation does not conclude something. Because they are not emulating something that is not around that other kids emulate which is around them does not mean they are being raised to not do (or to do) actions they observed and are emulating. A kid that does not participate in Baseball for most of their childhood does not mean the kid will not like baseball when they are older.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The fact is, couples tend to pick up each others mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, and all that.
It is not a fact. Some couples do. Some do not. My wife and I are very different. Yes we have some "mannerisms" that will be the same. That is more colloquial than anything. A phrase I start saying she may pick up on and start using it. That does not mean I will start buying Ugg boots and she will start programming.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Yes it is due to the fact that they've been together a long time and may like what each other likes
No, it is more likely that that couple is together because they like those similar things. My wife and I are together for different reasons. Her and my style is not necessarily merging as you are claiming. Because that is not what brought us together. Couples that end up together because they share similar styles will gradually have more similar styles. Not because they are together, but because their personalities were similar from the start. Think of it this way. If an Indian person marries and Indian person are they more or less likely to share an appreciation for Indian culture? If an Indian person marries an American, it is not conclusive that the American appreciates Indian culture nor that the Indian appreciates American culture. You might want to claim well they have to because they married a person from that culture. This is only relevant in the case where the person of that culture is forcing their cult
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And I respect your opinion about that, but I shouldn't be forced to accept something just because everybody is on that bandwagon now. I don't go out beating and burning everyone (i.e., anyone) and everything (i.e., anything) that I disagree with. To each his own number one.
OK to me as well ! I was actually a bit surprised at your positions, because I know (well, from what I have read on CP) that we happen to agree on a lot of other things that have been discussed here (no specfiic example, but overall feeling), so I did not expect that.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That does not mean I can raise him to like something. If I like army men and he does not I am not going to be able to force him into liking them.
You can't force him to like something, but if he sees you playing with army men he might start liking it especially if you continue to play with him.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
A child emulates what they like.
A child does not emulate what they like since they already like it. A child emulates when they're not aware of something and copy you tit for tat. After a while, they may start liking it or they may do it out of habit or they may stop completely.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
You can't force him to like something, but if he sees you playing with army men he might start liking it especially if you continue to play with him.
And my daughter might start liking it too :omg: Well you do agree you can not force them to like something. So whether you hand your child a playboy or a playgirl it is irrelevant. They will like whatever they like.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
A child does not emulate what they like since they already like it.
A child "plays" and uses imagination to see if they like it. When they realize they like it they create patterns around it. They may play with the toy once. This usually means they don't like it ;)
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
A child emulates when they're not aware of something and copy you tit for tat.
Sure. That does not make them like it. If they get bored copying you tit for tat they will find something else.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
After a while, they may start liking it or they may do it out of habit or they may stop completely.
Exactly. But that has nothing to do with you showing them it or not. They will like what they like and not like what they do not like.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet. The interesting thing about software is it can not reproduce, until it can.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is non-sense. Kids emulate those around them. It has nothing to do with the sex. My daughter will do things I do and imitate them. She does not emulate me because my wife is not there.
Are you saying that your daughter emulates you and your wife equally? What I meant by not around is divorced parents and widowed. I meant not around long term, not gone shopping or working.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Again this is non-sense.
The fact is, couples tend to pick up each others mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, and all that. Yes it is due to the fact that they've been together a long time and may like what each other likes, but emulation also exists whether consciously or subconsciously.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is not a fact. The fact is they emulate that which is around them.
That is a contradictory statement. At a young age, parents are all around their kids and kids will emulate them. The fact that your daughter emulates a puppy is either her being cute or looking for attention. Either way, she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't actually want to be a puppy. The rest of your statement is just there to make the whole thing sound absurd. LOL!
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
What does that have to do with anything. Because you saw 2 people hugging and kissing you are straight?
Back in my day, we didn't see the other lifestyle on television. So I'm sure we weren't influenced. We need statistics on what percentage of straight parents had kids who grew up gay and what percentage of gay parents had straight kids and see what the trend is down the road. If it's nature, the trend should be moving slowly IMO.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is obvious.
Again you're using absurd statements to make what I said sound absurd. Enough said.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Are you saying that your daughter emulates you and your wife equally?
No idea. Right now I would say she emulates her brother and the dog the most.... I would not draw any conclusions from it. She is a 4 year old.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What I meant by not around is divorced parents and widowed. I meant not around long term, not gone shopping or working.
You are mixing up things here. Lack of emulation does not conclude something. Because they are not emulating something that is not around that other kids emulate which is around them does not mean they are being raised to not do (or to do) actions they observed and are emulating. A kid that does not participate in Baseball for most of their childhood does not mean the kid will not like baseball when they are older.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The fact is, couples tend to pick up each others mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, and all that.
It is not a fact. Some couples do. Some do not. My wife and I are very different. Yes we have some "mannerisms" that will be the same. That is more colloquial than anything. A phrase I start saying she may pick up on and start using it. That does not mean I will start buying Ugg boots and she will start programming.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Yes it is due to the fact that they've been together a long time and may like what each other likes
No, it is more likely that that couple is together because they like those similar things. My wife and I are together for different reasons. Her and my style is not necessarily merging as you are claiming. Because that is not what brought us together. Couples that end up together because they share similar styles will gradually have more similar styles. Not because they are together, but because their personalities were similar from the start. Think of it this way. If an Indian person marries and Indian person are they more or less likely to share an appreciation for Indian culture? If an Indian person marries an American, it is not conclusive that the American appreciates Indian culture nor that the Indian appreciates American culture. You might want to claim well they have to because they married a person from that culture. This is only relevant in the case where the person of that culture is forcing their cult
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
No idea. Right now I would say she emulates her brother and the dog the most.... I would not draw any conclusions from it. She is a 4 year old.
I wasn't asking about her brother or the dog. Between you and her mom, I would think she emulates her mom more. The fact that most of the boys in my family emulate their dads and the girls their moms cannot be coincidence since both are equally available.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You are mixing up things here. Lack of emulation does not conclude something. Because they are not emulating something that is not around that other kids emulate which is around them does not mean they are being raised to not do (or to do) actions they observed and are emulating.
A kid that does not participate in Baseball for most of their childhood does not mean the kid will not like baseball when they are older.But if the kid grew up watching baseball with the dad and played outside with the dad, they will like it. Similarly, the kid may not like it until he's old enough to try it and change his mind about it. But until they're old enough to change the way they think, they are learning from observation and their parents actions, inactions, or reactions around them. Emulation is not permanent and is mostly influential at young ages. Again, I fail to see your point here.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
My wife and I are together for different reasons.
Different reasons than other married couples or different reasons than each other? :confused: (Pleading the fifth is acceptable.)
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
No. You made a conclusion from the emulation claiming they emulate one sex over the other. You have no data to back that up.
Gender typing is a well studied subject and there are countless articles on it. The fact that I see it in my own extended family all the time cannot be coincidence. I see it in my son a lot and he's with his mother for most of the week. Google it if you need more data. It's there.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
That is an assumption.
Agreed. There are more plausible explanations of why and I'm just giving you the few that came to mind. However, I sincerely doubt that your daughter actually thinks she's a puppy and I'm sure you'd have her checked if you thought that was t
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Quote:
Again you're using absurd statements to make what I said sound absurd. Enough said.
Welcome to dealing with Collin. :)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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[check the forum title] yep this is the Soapbox so: I don't get the whole furore over Russia's gay laws. It seems to me the not being allowed to promote gay relationships to minors is a GOOD thing. If a teenager is so inclined then they will find out about their options as far as sexuality are concerned. If they are incapable of locating resources then they are not strongly motivated in the gay direction. And no I'm not homophobic, I don't give a rats arse what someones sexual preferences are just keep it to themselves. I would also like to include religion in the ban but I know I'd be pissing in the wind on that one.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
It's been taken as a rather bald attempt to simply not allow gay people to express themselves in public. The issue is simply that denying any exposure while not having implemented that whole ban on religious stupidity bit, you have pricks screaming it's horrible and wrong to be that way while no one is allowed to say those pricks are wrong. Don't know how much you've followed of just how insane people get with the intolerance of the idea someone(particularly their own child) may be gay, but generally when it comes to having your own child kidnapped in the night, stuffed into a van and shipped off to a camp where they tell them that their desires go against god and should be suppressed or they'll go to hell. Letting people talk about it a bit seems to be the more sane option. Right now it's a semi-private shame that some groups will persecute at will, particularly with the children they have full control over. Why it's becoming public is simply to remove the level of isolation that's used to victimize young gay(or occasionally mistaken for gay) people. It seems stupid with the media that's out there, but knowing REAL gay people exist and hearing what they've done has helped a lot of kids. It's not some skeevy old guy with free candy painted on his 80s van, just someone who's already grown up through the same bullshit and may have advice on dealing with it. It's not really promotion, at least not the useful things that have been done, it's simply acknowledging that the kid's aren't alone, aren't intrinsically wrong for their feelings and that when they grow up their life is largely under their own control.
